Author Topic: Knocking out B24's (Read 1162 times)

Atlatl · « **on:** August 19, 2005, 12:42:19 PM »

I'm looking for a little advice on engaging and knocking out B24's.
I generally manage to eek out a 1:1 or slightly better k/d ratio against them, as opposed to a 5:1 or significantly better against other buffs types out there, especially when actually focusing in maintaining personal k/d ratios through a tour. Even in comparison to other similar platforms (e.g. B17's), the B24 is the only buff out there that makes me second guess my decision to attack since I know the likelihood of coming out of that engagement with both the wings, engine, and pilot intact is minimal at best.
I've tried most tactics that I can think of to knock them down quickly, including cockpit shots, but I consistently get hammered by those guns at ridiculous angles and distances. I've recently settled on aiming for an engine to create an engine fire that'll eventually blow them up. I also aim for the drones first, so that the gunner has to at least change planes to get a better shot.
I wonder if this might be a firepower problem (I typically fly the C205 or 109g2 for fighter missions), since snapshots at oblique angles rarely work for me. But these oblique shots are, ironically, my goal since I generally won't engage buffs without altitude and position at least equal to their front hemisphere.
I've been told by a squaddie that he specifically tries to saw off the wings, but when I try to do that I seem to consistently end up dead six on the buff group.
And then I get to enjoy the experience of a fiery plummet to the ground, and rightly so.
I'd appreciate your comments.

Krusty · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2005, 01:05:44 PM »

Never take a 109 unless it has 30mm, gondolas, WgR rockets, or all 3. Taking just the hub 20mm isn't enough to knock them out fast enough. The 205 is capable, with 2x 20mm, but you have to (as with all good attacks) plan it out ahead of time.

You need speed. Lots of it. Diving from a higher alt helps. However when you are attacking the bombers don't attack from the same alt. It's too easy to be shot down. You either need to be 1k distance above them (1k as a margin of safety for defensive guns, if you can stay 1.5k you're good) or below them.

If you're attacking from above dive down, fire, pass by, and keep going, then loop around and up and reposition. If you're attacking from below (I find that's a very good position, even for bombers with ball gun turrets) then keep going up past the formation after your pass.

By not attacking on the same plane [EDIT: Plane of altitude, not "plane" as in airplane], and by carrying your attack through past the formation, you force the gunner to jump from top to bottom turrets, and that gives you some time to get away. So when you enter the attack from below always exit it above. Vice versa, as well.

Mustaine · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2005, 01:15:27 PM »

always attack from in front and above

shoot at the cockpit, or wing roots.

dont spend more ammo than you need.

Vudak · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2005, 01:15:45 PM »

The best advice I can give you is to use the same tactics that the LW did against these planes. Attack from the slightly-high-front, concentrate your fire on a single point (ideally the cockpit), break at the last possible second, and reposition for a similar attack.

If you hit the cockpit right, the entire plane will explode, as you've just killed the pilot.

Urchin posted a good film called "Luxury of Speed" awhile back that shows how he dealt with a trio of bombers in this way (amongst other things).

They can still hit you if you attack this way, but this at least gives them the shortest possible firing window, and with something like a B24, they can still hit you pretty much wherever you attack, so you might as well make it fast.

Krusty · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2005, 01:46:01 PM »

I don't like it when people say "only attack from the high front" because 99% of the time the bombers are hauling bellybutton at 250MPH and you're behind them trying to catch up. It's impossible to catch, overtake, turn around and then attack from the front in almost every case I've ever seen.

So while that is the BEST angle, it's not the most practical. I find rear quarter (at least 45 degrees -- 90 is better!) and diving in from above is very useful. If you just CAN'T get any separation laterally go for a much more vertical attack (dive under and climb straight UP or pull even at a higher alt, roll 180, and nose down directly into them.).

Mustaine · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2005, 02:13:22 PM »

if you really want to survive, and kill them, you take whatever time is necessary to set up properly.

if you want to go fast fast fast, and try and manage a lucky kill quick, then attack from the fastest decent angle.

it's all about how you want to fly.

if i am up against 999000 it may take over 10 minutes to kill him, but i will survive, and be victorious.

dont foeget that attacking from in front andd above gives him only basically 2 guns to shoot at you with (top and nose). if you rake the fuselage cockpit to top turret you may kill that top turret, and now he has very little defense in front high.

Atlatl · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2005, 04:00:17 PM »

Thanks for the input.

Looks like I'm doing the right things, but probably undergunned. Plus, the ole gunnery needs some work...not to mention some additional patience. The lack of patience generally rears its head when I see more 'help' coming in from countrymen, I've expended 50% of my ammo on the buff group just to get poke a hole in their fuel tanks, and I'm looking at yet another 3 assists since my 7.9mm and 20mm haven't inflicted enough damage to count for the kills.

I'm generally about trying to maintain (well, maybe achieve is a better word) a high k/d ratio regardless of opponent aircraft...but that starts to get left by the wayside when I see my assist numbers tripling my kill numbers.

I'm not actually complaining re: the 'help.' I'd much rather see the buffs going down than see our hangers and barracks drop. What I need is an ability to get quicker kills on the buffs, so friendlies never get their shots in.

I find that I have particular problems with the 24's but it looks like all agree that the front quarters and underbelly are the weakest defensive positions. I tend to see the length of the aircraft lit up with sprites, with virtually no effect - which again indicates a problem with a lack of pinpoint accuracy. And, man, I just continue to believe those B24 guns have more firepower than other 50cals...and the B24 airframe might be on the juice too.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2005, 04:29:24 PM »

The best way to attack any bomber formation in here is from above. I stay a minimum of 1.5k yards as I make my approach. That distance is the minimum safe distance to stay out of the bomber's gun range. As I'm about to over take the formation, I will decrease throttle and push on the stick to unload my plane and make my dive. I then aim the nose of my plane between the cockpit and the top turret. My rounds will usually impact right behind the cockpit in the wing root area, either causing the wing to seperate or catching the plane on fire. I have noticed though in Bostons, Lancasters and B-17s, the wings will usually come off but in B-24s more often then not catch fire but the result is still the same. It usually never takes me more than 3 passes to wipe out a formation. One pass, one kill. Oh, and one benefit of coming in at a fast, steep angle is that the guns will have tough time tracking you.

ack-ack

Geary420 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2005, 10:28:19 PM »

Since you mention you may need a bit more patience, don't forget a burning plane is a dead plane. Its amazing how many times I see someone in on buffs and light one ablaze, then immediately continue pressing their attack. If you light one on fire use the time until he pops to reposition for your next attack. It's guaranteed to die, and its one less deathstar to worry about.

Atlatl · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2005, 11:34:32 PM »

Roger that.

Thanks for the posts.

Iceman24 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2005, 03:17:47 PM »

my fav tactic and i use against all bombers is to get about 1K out dead six, then start climbing but never getting closer then 1K, as you climb from that posi, the bombers will open fire, don't worry at that distance they wont hurt you, keep climbing until you get about 3-4 K on top of them, then dive straight down on the lead, and aim for the wing root ( wing and fuselage come together ) blow him up, punch the throttle pull back up and do it again, I have never been touched by a buff as long as I do this, If I mess it up and end up near the rear of a b24 for example basically coming in at a 45 degree angle on them, then you are settting yourself up for certain death, anywhere near the rear of a bomber is a no no... This trick works well for all bombers, if you run into lancs, just shoot at the tail and you will kill the tail gunner 1st all the time, and most ppl flying buff don't know how to switch planes, and lancs have very weak guns... I tried using the opposite of this trick, coming up from underneath, but it seems the ball gun is allot easier to hit with than the top, so I would suggest coming down from the top at a 90 angle if you can, you are impossible to hit there, they are unable to fire straight up and if they do they can't lead you enough... same thing works on bombing gv's 90 degree angle and they cant hit you....its the only way i attack buffs, ive tried all the other ways and this is only way i know how to kill all 3 without getting touched most of the time.. if i don't mess up my form then i never get touched, its when i mess up and come in at less than 90 that i get hit... i like 10 and 2 oclock but if you take your shot there, you will end up on the buffs 6 oclock side because you are shooting instead of maneuvering... any descent buff stick will kick his rudder right before you open up at 10 or 2 and put u on his 6 for an easy kill, i don't like front shots for 1 reason, instead of shooting and aiming, you could be maneuvering to a better position for a better high percentage shot... just my way of doin it, and I learned it from watching Ack Ack take down a flight of B17's, I have tried them all and I promise this is the best way. if u go for cockpit shots from a headon or 10 or 2 you will end up on his 6 and give him a shot for at least a few seconds, and if he has a gunner or is descent then your toast

Simaril · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2005, 08:17:59 PM »

I'm no ace, but I've had good success with another historical attack -- more from BOB erar, but works well against all but the master gunners.

I get above and to the side, parallel to the flightpath. My path comes no closer than 1k when even with buff; if he starts firing, I'll do minor vertical adjustments to throw his lead off and consume his ammo -- even pings have low damage potential at that range laterally.

Once he's below me (I'm usually only patient enough to get 500-1000 above) and about even with my wing trailing edge, I'll wing over towards him and do a slashing intercept. With a good gunner I'll do a non-historic barrell roll on approach, and NEVER get a ping through the roll. IdeallY I'll get a nice defelction shot at his wing root from slightly above and either just ahead of him or jsut behind him, then dive past him vertically, continue shallow descending extension with or without roll, and execute what amounts to a big yo-yo to set up for the next attack from the other side.

The goal is to continually change angles and require continual traverse/deflection changes.

It's more of a chipping away attack, but essentially the only time I die is when I get impatient, break out of the discipline, and park on the six "just for a second". Actually if I stay there for that long I'm OK because of the postion and travers changes -- but its a very bad habit.

My brother loves his a5/a8, and he likes to get precisely coalt and to one side of the trio. When he breaks in, he keeps the same alt -- and does minor vertical adjustments to force the gunner to switch from top to botttom gun continually. I havent mastered it, but he says he takes out all 3 routinely and doesnt take damage. I am jealous of his ability to get buffers into a state of frantic, impotent distraction....

Iceman24 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2005, 10:30:44 AM »

Another thing to remember about buff killing is that you only have to set one on fire, not actually cut a wing off or destroy it... sometimes i'll have the 1st 2 on fire while I'm killing the 3rd, it works well because most guys that fly buffs don't know how to switch planes and if you set them on fire you can essentially use that as a place to hide, when there trailing fire like that it makes some blind spots on the rear area of the plane... last night I practiced killin buffs and had 4 sorties, 3 kills on each and was only shot 1 time by a P47 when I got greedy and tried to take him on with only 100 .50 cals left ( bad mistake, and aiming )... but I used that slashing attack your talking about Simaril and it works very well also, I like it cause I can put hits on all 3 buffs or at least 2 if done correctly.... was gonna post that exact way of attcking them but you beat me to it lol

Schutt · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2005, 05:59:38 AM »

If you dont have the alt and speed to get em let em fly. Really, the biggest mistake is to try a slow climbing attack.

What i think works good is not to attack directly but sway around a bit only pulling into a shot from 300 yards, get in a burst then zoom away and reposition.

Apart from high fron approaches i find low front bounces with good speed easy to aim and verry effective. I also try to get side slashes, where i come from the side and pull into their direction, with some praktice manage do get their tails off in the pass.

Main target is pilot, tailboom (not rudder/elevator they are solid) or one of the engines.

When one is on fire use the time to climb and get energy till it explodes, less counterfire.

Since i am verry bad at bomber attacks i mostly take a cautios pass and if i see that they are good at gunning i leave em alone. What works verry well is when 2 fighters attack the bomber, the one thats fired on goes evasive and the other one gets a good shot.

TracerX · « **Reply #14 on:** August 24, 2005, 03:10:35 PM »

I have noticed that the B24's are both slightly more vulnerable to dammage right at the wing root and engines, but the guns seem to be more deadly than B-17's and B26's. I give them much respect out to 1.5 yards away. I fly the 109G-10 frequently, and I use the single 30mm cannon with no gondolas. This plane can get you into position to attack faster than any other plane, except for the Me-163. It will out climb a Me-262 to 20K. The attack strategy is the same as what has been mentioned already. Climb above and to the right or left of the bombers (1.5 yards minimum) then roll over so you are comming almost straight down. This is the hardest angle for the bombers to track and compute lead for. Be carefull not to overspeed, and set your aim point for the wing root of one of the bombers, and hold your fire until you are so close you can't miss. Fire off 3-7 rounds of 30mm and watch the plane either burn, fall apart, or blow up. Climb up and repeat.

No matter how well I do, there are still those gunners out there that can shoot the eyes off a dragonfly at 200 yards, and manage to get enough hits to end your attacks. You just have to salute them and let them go.