Author Topic: Withdrawal 1972 ABM treaty. (Read 4155 times)

Boroda · « **Reply #30 on:** December 12, 2001, 04:35:00 PM »

Well, I already told you that the first ICBM interception was performed in 1963. Guess where?

In 1972 USSR had a complete functional ABM system ready for deployment. Now we have a second-generation ABM system around Moscow, built in mid-80s. All according to the treaty.

USSR was far behind the West in "consumer goods" technologies. But, until the "destroyka" in late-80s Soviet weapon systems were at the same level or more advanced then American competitors.

As for the "space race" - tell it to your grandma and don't waste time nessesary to read it on this board.

All my pro-Soviet rhethorics are a result of a frustration and disappointment about the "free world" in the last 10 years. And the picture of Russians that I get from Hangtime and others (don't mean to offend Hangtime, a person that I really respect). Unfortunately, the propaganda slogans picked up from dr. Goebbels helped US to win the cold war. I don't care about what you are told there, but I hate this crap spread here in Russia.

This days I can be extremely cynic. I am reading "Goebbels: the Devil's Advocate" by Curt Riess. A great book. In the current context I can call it a "Requiem for the pro-Western idealism".

I want to ask you to refrain from further discussing propaganda in this thread. If you wish to flame about it (and I don't see any other way of discussing that topic) - please start another thread.

Raubvogel · « **Reply #31 on:** December 12, 2001, 04:43:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda:

But, until the "destroyka" in late-80s Soviet weapon systems were at the same level or more advanced then American competitors.

FALSE

Unfortunately, the propaganda slogans picked up from dr. Goebbels helped US to win the cold war.

WTF are you talking about?

I want to ask you to refrain from further discussing propaganda in this thread.

Huh? You just posted an entire thread of propaganda. I've been in the military since the 80's. Guess what? Our weapons blow the Soviet crap away. I saw how great Soviet military technology was first hand. It was worthless to the Iraqis. Most of their tanks were destroyed before they even realised they were under attack. Now, I know they might not have been the latest and greatest Soviet tech, but even our M60A-3s that deployed to Desert Storm kicked their ass.

I feel sorry for you dude.

funkedup · « **Reply #32 on:** December 12, 2001, 04:46:00 PM »

I don't understand. You don't want any propaganda but you deny existence of functional, tested, US ABM systems in mid-1970's and you ignore the first ICBM intercept made by Nike Zeus at Kwajalein in July 1962. Boroda either you are joking with us or you are so brainwashed by propaganda that I can not communicate with you.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Boroda · « **Reply #33 on:** December 12, 2001, 04:47:00 PM »

Sorry, have to say that 20-30 years is certainly an exaggeration. With modern design technologies and other goodies US will probably build an analog to a Soviet local ABM system in maybe 5-10 years, depends on fundings. It's my own humble opinion. No offences for American engineers.

If US wanted a result, not a process - they should turn to Russian design bureaus.

funkedup · « **Reply #34 on:** December 12, 2001, 04:57:00 PM »

Now you are talking sense man. I would say more like 5 years. Depends on who's in office though. Look at how the ATF program got screwed.

J_A_B · « **Reply #35 on:** December 12, 2001, 05:01:00 PM »

"Why would a rogue state go through the expense, time and energy of making a missle when it can just walk in a nuke"

Uh, how are they going to "walk in" a 4 or 5 ton piece of complex radioactive machinery? I know our customs is bad, but it isn't THAT bad!

If you think they'll ever have a "suitcase" nuke or similar high-tech nuclear weapon, you're sadly mistaken. Nuclear weapons are nowhere near as simple as high-school textbooks suggest, and downsizing them is even more shockingly complicated. An ICBM would be the easiest, most efficient way for a rogue state to deliver any warhead it managed to build. Accuracy wouldn't matter; landing one in the general area of New York or Los Angeles would do a tremendous amount of damage.

J_A_B

Boroda · « **Reply #36 on:** December 12, 2001, 05:07:00 PM »

Raubvogel, you have been in the military. You had to believe you are superior. If you didn't - you were a bad soldier.

Does US have any planes comparable to Tu-160 now? Or to Su-27? Answer - no.

I don't mention many other fields like artillery systems, large-caliber mortars etc. Not speaking about SAMs - your Patriot is obsolete, and was obsolete when it was designed.

Funked, what you said really makes me wonder that I missed something, but I can't reach any link from .mil domain. You know, we are still considered "Asian bolshevik barbarians". Anyway - Nike Zeus ABM interception sounds almost as funny as a Redstone space launch vehicle.

Can you send that materials to me by mail, or maybe we can ask Toad to find some other links?

Seriously.

Boroda · « **Reply #37 on:** December 12, 2001, 05:14:00 PM »

J_A_B - I have told this many times, but people here believe their school physics textbooks rather then some barbarian supposed-to-be weapon engineer like me.

funkedup · « **Reply #38 on:** December 12, 2001, 05:15:00 PM »

I forgot about the .mil thing.

Here is something about the Zeus: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-49.html

As for the 1970's system do a search for the following words: Spartan, Sprint, Sentinel, Safeguard.

And if you say USA doesn't have planes as good or better than Su-27 or Tu-160 you are kidding again.

PS You know me, I have lived with, worked with, been friends with several Russians who moved to the US. I'm sure the ones who didn't come over here are slightly less bright than my friends, but I doubt they are barbarians.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Raubvogel · « **Reply #39 on:** December 12, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda:
Raubvogel, you have been in the military. You had to believe you are superior. If you didn't - you were a bad soldier.

Not true. We were well informed about the threats that the Soviet weapons systems imposed and what advantages and disadvantages our weapons had versus them.

Quote

Does US have any planes comparable to Tu-160 now? Or to Su-27? Answer - no.

B-2...B-1...F-117...F-22...even F-15 and F-16. The Su27 is a fine plane, but its avionics are not up to par with our electronic suites. In these days a flying turd with great avionics is better than a awesome aircraft with Radio Shack electronics.

Quote

I don't mention many other fields like artillery systems, large-caliber mortars etc. Not speaking about SAMs - your Patriot is obsolete, and was obsolete when it was designed.

I guess you are forgetting or have never heard of the MLRS system, or the Paladin SP howitzer, or the THAAD missile system.

I am still in the military btw, and I can tell you that it wasn't until after the Cold War that we realized just how big of an advantage our equipment had versus Soviet equipment. During the Cold War we truly feared many of your weapons, but in hindsight we held a considerable edge. This isn't from 'propaganda', this is from studying Soviet equipment after it was available.

funkedup · « **Reply #40 on:** December 12, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »

Hey I found a good one that I think you can reach: http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/complete.htm

Hangtime · « **Reply #41 on:** December 12, 2001, 06:37:00 PM »

I hereby rename Boroda CHEKOV

..the chubby cute, lovable & harmless russian ensign on the bridge of Enterprise who was constantly correcting the Federation Propaganda on who invented what, and when.

I laffed my bellybutton off when Kahn put a bug in his ear.

Boroda, I hope you get a chance to 'come west' some day; and see with eyes un-shuttered.

<S!>

Boroda · « **Reply #42 on:** December 12, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »

Damn disconnection had eaten my last post!!!

Hang, I have been to the US in 1989. Great impressions. Beautiful country. Beautiful people.

Now my point is completely different. I don't like that your impression about Russians and "communists" is the only one accepted by the public.

I never saw early Startrek series, and the only time where I met "Chekov" was an ancient Startrek computer game for IBM-360 (I played it on EC-1033). You know, a game for a primitive CRT terminal, with command-line interface. I have never experienced so much fun from any other computer game

Hehe, Chekov was a family-name of my first teacher in 1979, Leningrad, school #248. Yekaterina Sregeyevna Chekova

Hangtime · « **Reply #43 on:** December 12, 2001, 07:55:00 PM »

Quote

Now my point is completely different. I don't like that your impression about Russians and "communists" is the only one accepted by the public.

That, like most of your posts, is entirely incorrect.

But, not to distract you too much from the subject; it seems that to your reckoning; the USSR's accomplishemnts of old, and the Confederations accomplishments as of late were and are shining examples of stalwart progress towards peace, prosperity and unity in the world; while the USA's motives and policys are underhanded, sneaky and rife with perfidity.

*gasp*

My god, he's right! We're truly evil capitlist running dogs; distributing imperialistic corrupt goverments in our diplomatic wakes; ever intent on more customers for our evil corporations!

*yawn*

We now return you to our evil plan of dominating the world whilst we madly scramble about horrifying the peace-loving citizens of the world tearing up treaties with defunct governments in the attempt to obtain parity with the Evil Empire to the East in missile technology!

"Have a Nice Day... in Hell!!" (chalked on the side of a Daisy Cutter, replete with yellow smily face)

So sorry..

Toad · « **Reply #44 on:** December 12, 2001, 09:04:00 PM »

RADARGATE: SOVIET ADMISSION OF AN "OPEN" TREATY VIOLATION

"23 October 1989

RADARGATE: SOVIET ADMISSION OF AN "OPEN" TREATY VIOLATION MAKES FOOLS OF AMERICAN APOLOGISTS

(Washington, D.C.): Today, the Soviet Union formally acknowledged what it has systematically denied since July 1983 when the United States first detected the construction of a large, phased array radar (LPAR) near the Siberian city of Krasnoyarsk. After rejecting for six years formal U.S. accusations of wrong-doing, Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze admitted what all but the USSR's most determined apologists have long since recognized: "The construction of this [radar] station...constituted an open violation of [the] ABM [Treaty]."

More interesting still is the fact that, as reported by Reuters, Shevardnadze disclosed "the [Soviet] leadership had known this for some time." He tried to downplay the significance of that statement by suggesting that it took four years "to sort out matters with this [radar] station." The reality, however, is that this radar was a violation of the ABM Treaty from its inception. Moreover, there can be little doubt that the Soviet leadership has always known that to be the case.

The basis for these conclusions is elementary: The Krasnoyarsk radar is of essentially the same design as eight other LPARs the Soviets themselves have described as early warning radars. The ABM Treaty prohibits the Soviets from constructing a radar with such characteristics at a site and with an orientation like those of the LPAR at Krasnoyarsk......."

******

Oh, most certainly we must ALL honor the sanctity of the ABM treaty.