Author Topic: Isreali pullout  (Read 1903 times)

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2005, 12:37:38 PM »
Ok I stand corrected but in reality Naswan is kind of right. Until people actualy belive in the words they are kind of meaningless.

Thanks for contributing though hacksaw1, I'm learning here!

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2005, 01:41:49 PM »
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   It's just as true that Jewish leaders in 1948 saw partition as a neccessary first step to a Jewish state in all of Palestine.



You have some quotes for that?


Oh yes. :)

Ben Gurion:

"after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of the Palestine"

(1937, quoted in The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities by Simha Flapan)

From One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate
by Tom Segev:

"Ben Gurion favoured partition. He did not accept all the details, but he saw the proposal as the first step in a plan to gradually lay claim to the entire country, on both sides of the Jordan river. "A partial Jewish state is not the end, but the begining," he explained to his son Amos, "a powerful impetus in our historic steps to redeem the land in it's entirety."

From Righteous Victims By Benny Morris:

"Weizmann and Ben-Gurion pressed for a solution based on partition. Said Weizmann: 'The Jews would be fools noi to accept it even if [the land they were allocated] were the size of a table cloth" Both saw partition as a stepping stone to further expansion and the eventual takeover of the whole of Palestine. "No Zionist can forgo the smallest ponion of the Land of Israel," Ben-Gurion was quoted as saying. He wrote to his son Amos: "[A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning., .. Our possession is important not only for itself .. , through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state .. . will serve as a very potent lever in our historical efforts to redeem the whole country.""

From The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim, quoting Menachem Begin the day after the UN voted for partition:

"The partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized... Jerusalem was and for ever will be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever."

There're a lot more, if you look. Ben Gurion made simnilar statements a lot in the late 30s.

How much these statements represent Zionist leader's desires, and how much concrete plans, I don't know. I suspect it was more a desire to claim the whole of Palestine than a concrete plan, but clearly they had not resigned themselves to a state in part of Palestine.

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Don't know about that. I see a lot of blue ribbons these days in Israel, not just orange.


But how much of that is down to facing reality? Isn't it true that most Israelis feel the West Bank rightfully belongs to them? I think the majority of the Israeli population is ready to give up territory for peace, but how many have accepted that a Palestinian state is right, rather than just necessary for peace?

To quote Nadav Shragai again:

"Morally, historically and religiously, the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, takes precedence over the right of other peoples here. The internal dispute within Israel is over what is possible within the framework of the security and international reality that the country faces."

I think you'll find a great many on the Palestinian side who are also ready to accept an Israeli state, for the same reasons, and equally I think most Palestinians believe Israel rightfully belongs to them.

In both cases people are ready to accept the existence of the other, but I don't think either side truly sees the fairness of the two state solution.

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Might be wrong, but I believe the US's policy has been to say that settlements do not promote progress to peace. I don't recall the US ever saying all settlements Israel ever initiated were illegal.


From a State Department briefing for congress:

"Since the first Israeli settlements were created in the occupied territories following the June 1967 war, the United States has held that such settlements are illegal under international law"

From the Mitchell report 2001:

"The Interim Agreement provides that "the two parties view the West Bank and Gaza as a single territorial unit, the integrity and status of which will be preserved during the interim period." Coupled with this, the Interim Agreement's prohibition on taking steps which may prejudice permanent status negotiations denies Israel the right to continue its illegal expansionist settlement policy. In addition to the Interim Agreement, customary international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibits Israel (as an occupying power) from establishing settlements in occupied territory pending an end to the conflict."

The US also voted in favour of Security Council resolution 465 (I think) which says:

"Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;"

The US has also abstained from several similar votes, rather than use it's veto.

The US might not announce it's opposition as strongly as most other countries, but it seems to be the settled view of the US government, at least until Bush's speech last year, that the settlements are illegal.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 01:46:41 PM by Nashwan »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2005, 02:00:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

Morally, historically and religiously, the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, takes precedence over the right of other peoples here.


You can write German instead of jew and  all of a sudden you're 60 year back in the past/

Offline mosgood

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« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2005, 02:04:24 PM »
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Originally posted by straffo
You can write German instead of jew and  all of a sudden you're 60 year back in the past/


what about American Indian?

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2005, 02:06:32 PM »
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Originally posted by straffo
You can write German instead of jew and  all of a sudden you're 60 year back in the past/


Henh. There's a lotta places where that lil subtle exhange of words could be called relevant.

Untill you take into account the fact that the words don't just represent a nation, they reflect a political system that was flat out evil.

And that renders the word game moot.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2005, 02:20:51 PM »
I was not making a reference to the shoa I was more thinking of the Sudeten for example.

I didn't intended to make a parallel between the Nazi Germany and Israel.

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2005, 02:25:30 PM »
Hello Nashwan,

Granted Yeshuv leaders had grand ideas before statehood. It would be more impressive if you had some public quotes of the Israeli government after the founding of the nation in 1948 that it was a stated policy to gain all the territory of Palestine, as in the PLO Charter, or the Hamas Covenant. If you do I'd be glad to read them.  Don't bother with Begin after 1977.  Don't bother with Gandi and tranfer.

WB rightfully belongs to Israel?
I imagine you know there are a lot of opinions about that throughout the political spectrum. I think I would agree that "rightful access" to visit lands of historical interest to the Jewish people would be universal. I'm sure you know the Jewish population of Jerusalem was put under siege and expelled in the Independence War, and there was no freedom of access to Jewish holy places. After 1967 Jews, Christians and Muslims can access holy places unless a security situation prevents.

Illegal Settlements.
I am under the opinion that the US supports Israeli retention of Ariel at least, which I am pretty sure was settled after 1967. If all is illegal, then how could there be any support. Other settlements have been called an obstacle to peace, for sure.

Like it or not, religion, even for "secular" Arab or Jew, is still some part of the picture. Biblical promises to Israel may be overridden, including by Chief Rabbis who cite Pikuah Nefesh, but to say for example that Hebron, burial place of Abraham, is off-limits to Jews, is pretty difficult to swallow. That is why I think most Israelis have some strong feelings about the West Bank (a lot less about Gaza).

Regards

Cement

Offline Staga

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« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2005, 02:51:57 PM »
Hacksaw; feel free to look up for reasonings or even justifying building settlements on the occupied area but the fact is Israel adopted and carried out "Lebensraum" tactics.

le·bens·raum Pronunciation (lbns-roum)
n.
1. Additional territory deemed necessary to a nation, especially Nazi Germany, for its continued existence or economic well-being.
2. Adequate space in which to live, develop, or function.

In next month we're discussing about apartheid and if every adult Israeli citizen has a right to vote.

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2005, 04:00:06 PM »
Hello Staga,

Feel free to look up history resources. In 1947 the leaders of the Jewish Yeshuv agreed to the UN 181 resolution that called for Arab and Jewish states with Jerusalem as a separate entity. Arab residents of Palestine rejected it as did surrounding Arab nations. In the ensuing war atrocities were carried out by both sides. The cease fire line left the newly created Israel without access to the Old City of Jerusalem and Jewish holy places. No access was granted to Jews to visit the holy places even though that was one of the stipulations of the ceasefire.

Israeli leaders of 1967 had to deal with Arab neighbors under the leadership of Nasser who were beating the war drum. Israel responded. For "lebensraum"? Pal I can see your mind is made up. I think more along the lines of self-preservation against agressive behavior that threated throwing all Jews into the sea.

Best regards on your apartheid studies bud. You certainly are cordially invited to visit Israel and say anything you like about us or the government.  Afterwards I'm sure you'd like to visit Tehran and Riyaad.

Cement

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2005, 05:18:35 PM »
That was a rather good response! :lol

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2005, 06:34:55 PM »
Israelis removing those that refused to evacute

I do not think the police/national guard in the states would have that much patience
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2005, 06:55:39 PM »
Yea usually "Land Grabs" don't happen too often in wars when it's 3 on 1.

Of course everyone likes to re-write history to suite their idealogy.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2005, 07:50:31 PM »
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Originally posted by straffo
I was not making a reference to the shoa I was more thinking of the Sudeten for example.

I didn't intended to make a parallel between the Nazi Germany and Israel.


You of course know what happened to the Germans that moved into the Sudeten after the war, yes?

;)
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2005, 11:40:15 PM »
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Originally posted by Hangtime
You of course know what happened to the Germans that moved into the Sudeten after the war, yes?

;)


their touristic visa expired ?

Offline bozon

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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2005, 02:52:41 AM »
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Morally, historically and religiously, the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, takes precedence over the right of other peoples here.

You can write German instead of jew and all of a sudden you're 60 year back in the past

straffo, this is a perfect example of taking a quote out of context and twisting the meaning around.

Nadav Shragai (who writes for Haaretz daily news paper, considered a left wing paper) actually says that Israel should NOT occupy these lands even if they think they have a right to it over the right of other peoples.

Having the rights is a principal, excersizing it is a matter of practicality. What Israel is realizing is that it is actually in its best interest NOT to claim what they think they have the right to.

Quote
You have some quotes for that?

hehe hacksaw, don't mess with Nashwan about quotes. I don't know if he is in a relevant line of work or he just happens to have the "complete book of zionist crimes" handy, but he usually has his facts straight - the selection and completeness of facts is something to argue about, as well as conclusions.

Nashwan, those quotes are from 1937. The UN voted on the state of Israel and the partitioning in 1947. There were 2 partition plans and the 1st one was less in favour of the Jewish state. Also, alot happened in those 10 years, both for the settelement in Israel and to the Jewish world population that was reduced in size by 1/3.

After 1948, the only attempt to capture land was in the Suez crisis where Israel did the dirty fighting for France and Britain (we learned not to repeat that mistake again). 1967 war was far from an expansion attempt. The common view was that Israel is about to be wiped out and the joke on the street was to remind that "the last one should remember to turn off the lights". Only in the last days of the war when the victory became evident, political pressure was put on the army to capture more land - especially the Golan hights and the rest of the territory west of the Jordan river.

Bozon
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