Author Topic: Fair Tax Law...opinions?  (Read 983 times)

Offline Sabre

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Fair Tax Law...opinions?
« on: August 18, 2005, 01:30:52 PM »
There is currently a bill in committee in the US HoReps (H.R. 25) and a companion to it in the Senate (S.R. 25) called the Fair Tax Bill.  Essentially, it would eliminate the Federal Income tax (and the IRS), the alternate minimum tax, corporate taxes, the death tax, the gift tax, and Social Security and Medicare withholdings, and replace them with a flat-rate consumption tax on goods and services.  I've read quite a bit about it, and can't see any downside, other than all those IRS and H&R Block workers that would be out of work.  It is revenue neutral, that is, the rate (currently proposed to be 23%), would exactly replace the revenue generated under the current system.  It would replace the US Federal tax regulations, which run over 54,000 pages and well over a million words, with a tax plan that could be completely described on a 3x5 note card (one side, only).  The bill also calls for the repeal of the 16th ammendment to the US Constitution.  

Economists estimate that the economic growth that would be stimulated by the enactment of HR/SR 25 would be on the order of 10% annually.  There is an interesting feature of the bill that address the concern that poor people would have to pay more taxes.  Everyone would recieve a prebate check each month, that would in effect cover the fed consumption tax on essentials.  Let's say the poverty level for a household of a certain size is a $20,000 annual salary.  That household would receive a monthly check in the amount of 1/12 of $20,000 x 0.23, or approximately $383.  Every registered household would recieve this, regardless of income, so that no one would be pay the tax on the necessities of life.

The tax would only be on new retail goods and services, not on used items or inventories, for example.  It is not a value added tax, such as many European countries use.  It is paid one time, and the point of retail sale.  Your reciept would reflect how much tax you paid, and it would be complelely up to you how much tax you pay (since you decide what new goods and services you purchase).

The CBO recently estimated that US business and individuals pay as much as $500 BILLION annualy to comply with the federal tax laws.  Add to that the fact that no company (and few individuals) make any major business decision without computing the tax liability, and you can see just the tip of the iceberg of the positive effect passage of this bill would imbue to the economy.

What do you guys think?
Sabre
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Offline Sandman

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Fair Tax Law...opinions?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2005, 01:33:53 PM »
I think you want to spend $3.50 to $4.00 for a gallon of gasoline. ;)
sand

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2005, 01:33:53 PM »
I love the idea of a flat tax, but it will never pass...
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2005, 01:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
I love the idea of a flat tax, but it will never pass...


I prefer the flat tax to a national sales tax.
sand

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2005, 01:55:11 PM »
I don't understand the "prebate" idea.  Using the example you posted, anyone below the poverty line (20k in the example) effectively pays no tax.  Ok by me.  

Quote
Everyone would recieve a prebate check each month, that would in effect cover the fed consumption tax on essentials. Let's say the poverty level for a household of a certain size is a $20,000 annual salary. That household would receive a monthly check in the amount of 1/12 of $20,000 x 0.23, or approximately $383. Every registered household would recieve this, regardless of income, so that no one would be pay the tax on the necessities of life.


By "everyone", I assume it means everyone below the poverty line receives the prebate check?  

Then the last sentence throws me.  "Every registered household would receive this" -- meaning that everybody gets their 383 check a month, basically meaning they're not taxed on their first 20k of income?  

Is that what's being said, in a roundabout way?

Offline Skuzzy

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Fair Tax Law...opinions?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2005, 02:05:10 PM »
I like a flat tax.  Lot of pluses.  No more huge corporations poking money through loopholes to avoid paying taxes would be nice.  Might even keep the money in the U.S. as opposed to banking it all off-shore.

It will never pass, but it is a nice dream.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2005, 02:10:06 PM »
Agreed skuz, however the first presidential politican to pick this up and make it part of his campaign platform will likely get my vote.

It just needs to be made a very public, national issue.
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2005, 02:12:40 PM »
Problem is, they make a part of thier campaign, then it gets dumped when they get elected.

Citizen Bob:  But you said during your campaign.....(put whatever floats yer boat in this space).
Political Pacifier: PSYCHE!!!

And so the story goes, and so it will stay.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2005, 02:16:00 PM »
I just thought of another huge problem with the type of tax you are describing, or "a flat tax".  

Non-profit Organisations exist off of tax deductible donations.  Without those these organisations would lose very high percentages of tehir budgets.  That would be catastrophic to a lot of people who rely on them.
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Offline ROC

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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2005, 02:20:34 PM »
This bill is called "Hide the Peanut"

See, here is how it works.  They get the public all engaged and arguing over how "best" to tax you and no one spends the time to say Any Tax Reform Must Begin With how the Gov Spends It.

Imagine No change in the tax laws At All, and a Government that swipes just Half the waste off the books.  The tax relief would equal this proposal.
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Offline myelo

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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2005, 02:25:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Agreed skuz, however the first presidential politican to pick this up and make it part of his campaign platform will likely get my vote.


So you voted for Steve Forbes?

And as Sandman ponted out, the Fair Tax (sales tax) is not the same as a Flat Tax (income tax).
myelo
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Offline Lazerus

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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2005, 02:33:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
I think you want to spend $3.50 to $4.00 for a gallon of gasoline. ;)


I assume you are getting those amounts based on adding 23% to the current/predicted price of gasoline. You have to factor out the imbedded taxes that you don't see in that price, and the lowered cost of doing business that comes with the elimination of the income tax. The models I have seen predict that the cost of goods and services will drop sufficiently to at least offset the 23% sales tax.

Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
I don't understand the "prebate" idea. Using the example you posted, anyone below the poverty line (20k in the example) effectively pays no tax. Ok by me.

   
By "everyone", I assume it means everyone below the poverty line receives the prebate check?

Then the last sentence throws me. "Every registered household would receive this" -- meaning that everybody gets their 383 check a month, basically meaning they're not taxed on their first 20k of income?

Is that what's being said, in a roundabout way?


Every 'head of household' will recieve a prebate for the estimated amount of sales tax that will be spent on the basic needs of that houshold, regardless of income. It eliminates the class warfare approach of the current tax system.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2005, 02:34:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
I just thought of another huge problem with the type of tax you are describing, or "a flat tax".  

Non-profit Organisations exist off of tax deductible donations.  Without those these organisations would lose very high percentages of tehir budgets.  That would be catastrophic to a lot of people who rely on them.


OTOH, people do indeed give money to charitable contributions without regard for the tax deduction.
sand

Offline Gunthr

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Fair Tax Law...opinions?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2005, 02:43:37 PM »
You never know, we could get a flat tax or fair tax scheme some day... there are sure some pursuasive arguments for it.  Seems like the idea is getting more and more attention...
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2005, 02:49:51 PM »
Not in my lifetime.  Probably not in yours either.  I think the Moon is scehduled for departure from Earth, and it will happen before we get something that would benefit the working folks of this country.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 02:56:46 PM by Skuzzy »
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