Author Topic: Fair Tax Law...opinions?  (Read 1028 times)

Offline JTs

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Fair Tax Law...opinions?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2005, 05:04:45 PM »
calif. does charge sales tax on gasoline and diesel.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2005, 05:24:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JTs
calif. does charge sales tax on gasoline and diesel.


Don't be so sure. I believe it's a city/county sales tax and not a state sales tax.
sand

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2005, 05:31:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Instead of mailing everyone a prebate check why not simply not charge taxes on food and clothing?  Easier.  Cheaper.


Rabbid, there's a very good reason for sending a rebate check in stead.  One of the reasons our tax code is so fracked up is because of special interest groups.  First we'll have lobbiests for the various sectors of the food industry.  Next, we'll have medical industry at the congress' door.  Then energy, etc.  One of the benefits of this plan is it completely removes the influence of various interest groups.  Plus, it is predicated on the fact that when the imbedded taxes are removed, the cost of the item goes down, hopefully by nearly the same amount the sales tax adds.  To be fair, it must apply to all sectors of the economy.  A side benefit, from the stand point of those pushing this, is that the idea of a monthly check will make people more willing to consider this.

As for the "it will never happen" argument, it won't...unless enough people lobby thier elected fed reps and senators and demand it.  This idea has been in development for 20 years, and it is not the first time it's been brough before the congress.  Each year, more and more cosponsors have been added, and the current number in the House is 77 cosponsors.   We can make it happen, but only if we let those yahoos know how important it is.

BTW, this plan is as simple as they come.  It will do away with the IRS, and it's gastopo-like tactics.  It will reduce the tax code to a few pages, instead of 54,000.
Sabre
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2005, 05:32:38 PM »
Bah... flat tax is simpler. 10%... no excemptions, no exclusions, no prebate/rebates.
sand

Offline soda72

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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2005, 05:49:20 PM »
income                 -   tax%
0-15,000              --   0%
15,000-25,000     --   5%
25,000-35,000     --   10%
35,000-45,000     --   12%
45,000-55,000     --   13%
55,000-75,000     --   14%
75,000-95,000     --   15%
95,000-125,000   --   16%
125,000-250,000 --   20%
250,000 >            --   40%


no excemptions, no exclusions, no prebate/rebates


Stick it to the man  :)

Offline rabbidrabbit

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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2005, 06:07:05 PM »
it would suck to make 251,000 by that one..  how about for each amount over...

Offline Pei

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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2005, 08:28:18 PM »
I think a flat sales tax could have the effect of making people save more and spaned less: this might not be a good thing.

I'd prefer a flat income tax (including corporate income and capital gains). 10%  for everybody, no exemptions, no excuses and no need for accountants and a "tax industry" for 90% of the population.

One of the worst things I found about working in the US (and now in Australia as well): I can accept paying tax, I can't accept having to pay someone to figure out how much tax I should be paying and getting penalized if it's wrong. You want me to pay tax? Fine how much do you want me to pay? The PAYE scheme in the UK solves that problem for most people, but the Inland Revenue are slowly speading "Self-assessment" i.e. foisting off work they should be doing onto ordinary people.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2005, 11:26:37 PM »
Pei, the consumption tax has a number of advantages over a flat income tax, one of those being that it incourages saving and investing, because it eliminates the penalties of doing both.  That is a good thing, since it will generate capital investment, lower interest rates, and slow the rate of inflation.  People will have more of their paycheck each month, so spending will remain pretty much what it is now... and business won't have to pony up the SS and Medicare matching funds that they do now.   The addition of the fed consumption tax will be offset by the decrease in price of goods, due to elimination of imbedded tax costs in products and services.

A flat tax will not eliminate the need for a tax confiscation agency (aka the IRS), nor will it eliminate the volumous record keeping that must accompany it.  A flat tax would also retain the current system of tax withholding, which is the most insideous aspect of our current tax system.  Witholding is what allowed the tax burden to grow and grow, since it's easier to raise taxes without people really realizing it.  Since, under the Fair Tax bill, the amount and percentage of the tax paid is on every reciept, it's more difficult to hide tax increases behind the small print.

Doing away with corporate taxes will encourage the return of business that fled this country because of the tax burden (currently the US has the third worst corporate tax burden of the industrialized world).  Contrary to popular myth, corporations do indeed pay taxes, though that cost is passed directy to shareholders and consumers.  

Economic growth will be the end result of the Fair Tax bill, further fueled by the $500 billion annualy that buesiness and individuals WONT have to spend complying with the tax laws.  Economists disagree as to how much growth, but some are predicting as much as 10% annually.

Go to http://www.fairtax.org if you want to read more on the comparison between the Fair Tax and various flat-tax proposals.
Sabre
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2005, 01:28:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
I think you want to spend $3.50 to $4.00 for a gallon of gasoline. ;)
Heck, we in California will be paying that in a year or two.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2005, 09:21:17 AM »
sandie... a national tax would apply to gas but.... the idea of a national tax is that you get rid of the others first....  Most of the gas tax is a federal tax... you would have to eliminate that before you added another... you couldn't have two federal taxes...

I would think the same thing on booze and the current federal income tax you pay.

lazs

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2005, 10:03:41 AM »
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Plus, it is predicated on the fact that when the imbedded taxes are removed, the cost of the item goes down, hopefully by nearly the same amount the sales tax adds.


Partially offset, but only very partially.

The "embedded" taxes in products are usually small, they are comprised of part of the tax companies pay, part of the employment taxes, etc

The largest chunk of taxes raised are from income tax on individuals, by far. And those taxes are not embedded in the cost of goods.

Quote
One of the benefits of the Fair Tax is that previously untaxed sectors of our society would become part of the tax base. Monies earned through illegal activities that are not claimed as income now would be taxed at the retail level. Under the table workers, sellers of illegal products etc.


And the downside is that many things that are taxed now will switch to the underground economy.

Want some building work on your house? 15% discount if you pay cash, the work doesn't go on the books.

It happens all the time in countries with VAT, and the higher the rate, the more incentive there is to fiddle the system.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2005, 12:15:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Partially offset, but only very partially.

The "embedded" taxes in products are usually small, they are comprised of part of the tax companies pay, part of the employment taxes, etc

The largest chunk of taxes raised are from income tax on individuals, by far. And those taxes are not embedded in the cost of goods.



And the downside is that many things that are taxed now will switch to the underground economy.

Want some building work on your house? 15% discount if you pay cash, the work doesn't go on the books.

It happens all the time in countries with VAT, and the higher the rate, the more incentive there is to fiddle the system.


Actually, depending on the item or services, the embedded federal tax (including payrole FICA, SS, and Medicaid) averages from 18% to 25%.  So on average, the price of goods and service will go down about 22%.  As for the "cheating" aspect, that goes on now.  Neither system will totally eliminate that.  However, it will mean the job of monitoring such tax evasion will only have to cover businesses, and not both business and individuals as it does now.  Also, there will be some incentive to comply with the consumption tax, since the states, and also some businesses, will recieve a fee from the Fed for collecting taxes, which will be a percentage of the amount collected.

This isn't about finding the perfect system.  Since we don't live in a perfect world, such a thing is an impossibility.  However, of the alternatives I've seen presented thus far, the Fair Tax bill seems to offer more advantages and fewer problems than others, such as a flat-rate income tax and the VAT.  It is revenue neutral, gets rid of the oppressive IRS, eliminates nearly all of the compliance costs currently bourne by individuals and the private sector, will stimulate significant growth in the economy, bring business back to the USA, encourage saving and investing, severly reduce the power of special intrests and thier lobbiests, and make the tax system simple and transparent.  It also includes provisions for jump-starting the process to repeal the 16th ammendment (an absolute imperative to prevent an income tax from creeping back in.  The 23% figure being used is conservative, since it doesn't factor in the effects economic growth would have on growing increasing revenues.  The bill ties the tax rate to growth, such that that that percentage would shrink as the economy grows.  We as voters would still have to remain ever-vigilant, holding our government accountable for spending and insuring they don't try to fiddle with the program or "back-door" new taxes.
Sabre
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Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2005, 12:55:50 PM »
The Fair Tax Plan is a good idea on paper but it would never work unless there was a Consitutional amendment that went along with it outlawing all forms of income taxes. As soon as this plan was passed states like CA, MA and NY would drastically increase their income taxes. This would offset any gains made in the Fair Tax plan. Also what would stop a future congress from re-instating the income tax on top of the Consumption tax. They could use any crisis to do this, i.e. Social Security.

A better plan is a flat 10-15% income tax WITH NO WITHHOLDING! Every American must write a check for thier taxes every month. Do this and you will see the public very quickly start demanding that the Gov. be more fiscally responsible and LOWER the rate. Right now a large part of this nation don't even understand that they are paying taxes. Just ask them

Question: How much did you pay in taxes last year?

Answer: I didn't pay anything, I got money back!

And this my friends is why this will be very dificult to ever change.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2005, 01:26:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Agreed skuz, however the first presidential politican to pick this up and make it part of his campaign platform will likely get my vote.

It just needs to be made a very public, national issue.


Two words...John Kerry.

Did you switch the channel when he was on TV ranting about tax loopholes etc.

You had your chance.

:p
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2005, 01:27:10 PM »
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Actually, depending on the item or services, the embedded federal tax (including payrole FICA, SS, and Medicaid) averages from 18% to 25%. So on average, the price of goods and service will go down about 22%


So if the government is already getting about 22% of the price of goods in taxes on businesses, and gets income tax on top of that, how can a 23% vat rate replace both?