This is what leftists are.....

[GRUNHERZ]

Neo-Nazi was a reference to how extremist what I call, refer to, and mean by "Leftists".

They are that extreme. Not same on ideology, of course.


Im really trying hard to make the point that "Leftists" as I call them ARE NOT liberals or Democracts. They are loony dangerous extremists like the neo-nazis are.

[GRUNHERZ]

BTW Gavor Communism is actually far far more dangerous than Nazism and Fascism.

Fascism's and Nazism's power and lies rest in hatred agression and anger while Communism's power and its lies live in an aura of love, equality,peace and "social justice".

In fact in the end both systems do the same thing, people are opressed, a new "party" ruling class becomes a new social economic elite, and basically the country is ruined.


Nazism and Fascism are less dangerous since its harder to spread hate and anger than it is to spread childishly simple lies of peace and love. Plus the very agressiveness and open frank boastful brutality of fascism lends itself to vigorous public oppsition. Its much easier to be angry at obiviously bad guys beating old ladies only because they are jewish then it is to take the time and think why its bad to collectivise farms.


In the end communism and nazism are THE SAME, 100% THE SAME, only their public ideologies (propaganda) and delivery methods differ. Communism has a much better delivery method, it relies on positive human feelings while fascism acts on negative human feelings. Thats why communism is so much more dangerous, it spreads better.

[gavor]

I'm supposed to be working so i'll use short notes.

Communism is different, far different.
Its actually easier to spread hate and anger than love and understanding. If the reverse were true then the middle east would be living in peace.

Nazism and fascism are not as transparent as you make them out to be. People like the ideals, they appeal to basic human natures. These days they dont go around beating up old people or screaming 'im a nazi, i hate jews'. They form a political party and call themselves National Action or One Nation.

Finally, I'm not fan of communism, looked good on paper but was never gonna work. I dont hate people who choose to act all 'leftish' though. They live their life, i live mine. If they're doing something stupid, like saying 'osama is innocent, USA is terrorist' i hit them upside the head and burn their propaganda crap. But i still dont hate them. I just think they're ignorant.

[mietla]

Originally posted by Gavor:
I'm not fan of communism, looked good on paper ....

care to elaborate?

and then... look again. To me it looks like a "only a disaster" on paper and a true multi-generation holocaust in real life.

How many people died in as a result of Sumer/Assyrian/Babilon/Egyptian/Greek/Roman... etc. conquest? All this + the Coloseum + Crusades + Inquisition + New World Discovery etc.?

Communism killed that many each day. Remember Cambodia? 2,000,000 + in a couple of years? CCCP (or USSR) 60-70 million in 60 years? Remember China, Cuba, Vietnam...?

What is it in this "system" that you find appealing?

Obviously I'm pretty set in my views (and I don't mean to change yours), but still, I'm fascinated by folks that view it differently.

 

I dont hate people who choose to act all 'leftish' though. They live their life, i live mine.

You wish...

The very premise of the extreme lefties (just as extreme righties) is that YOU live your life the way THEY prescribe. It is (and has to be) a totalitarian system. Everybody plays the tune, or everything falls apart. So, they just have to make you play/sing, whatever it takes (including killing you as a example for the others).


P.S. Please don't take it as a personal attack. I'm just interested in what makes you tick.

[gavor]

Ok, lemme set some points straight that may be a bit vague.

1. I dont love or even like communism. I'm very well versed in history, i've always loved history and I realise how many people Stalin had worked/put to death. I was talking the original premise by Karl Marx. Marxism if you will. On the surface when he wrote it it sounded like a good idea. It wasnt and never will be. Period.
2. Extremists on either side are to be watched, but you dont have to rabidly hate them like GH. I'm a big believer in the saying 'all evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.' I agree when you say they wont leave me to myself forever. But until they do anything, why let them know that you're watching them. When you start being so rabid about extremists yourself, well thats a worry.
3. I dont take it as a personal attack unless you attack me. Thank you for pointing out where my dialogue was a little vague.

Cheers,
G

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Gavor ]

[mietla]

Originally posted by Gavor:
I was talking the original premise by Karl Marx. Marxism if you will. On the surface when he wrote it it sounded like a good idea.

That is exactly what I'm contesting in your statement(s). I find Marx's ideas fundamentaly abhorrent, inhuman and utterly unworkable (Just as the real life [or death] has shown).

 

Extremists on either side are to be watched, but you dont have to rabidly hate them like GH.

true, but see, the Montana Whackos do not extort a half of my paycheck. They have all the  guns they want, and yet they are not capable of doing it. Enter the libs, no guns, and yet MORE that a half of my income is gone. Just think of it. From Jan 1 till July "someting", I'm breaking my back for someone else's benefit. And I resent that with all my heart.

And yes, I can still marry whoever I want and live wherever I want, but then again hew is it different from servitude (did not want to use word "part time slavery", pretty close though)?

   

I'm a big believer in the saying 'all evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.'

I agree again. Just a matter of definition

To me
  totalitarianism    = BAD
  individial freedom = good

As you said, live and let live. I don't want/expect any "goodies" (long list of gunk if you ask) from the libs, in return LIVE ME ALONE, PLEASE. I can feed my children, thank you very much.

What twisted mind had invented te "school lunch" anyway? You mean you send your son or a daughter to school hungry hoping that someone will feed your child out of pitty?

 

When you start being so rabid about extremists yourself, well thats a worry.

which part of my post made you feel I'm rabid?

I'm looking for a dialog not a pissing contest.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]

[GRUNHERZ]

In the end 100% THE SAME Gavor, everything else is irrelevant.

People who defend and apologize for communism, marxism etc etc are no different then  then the neo-nazi fascist apologists. Well except that most college campuses arent staffed by the latter.

Both systems, EXACTLY THE SAME IN THE DESIRED END(please remember that), were and are extremly evil and bad. Nobody should excuse them.

There is nothing good about Marx who as Im sure you dont know was an extreme hypocrate as he did all his early writing and phylosophyzing while being financially supported by his (alleged) boyfriend Engels who was very wealthy because his daddy gave him a big business to make lots of money of. Marx was able to do his garbage because some rrich fool gave him money.


Dont be a Marxist apologist, plese stop that Gavor.


Marx = Evil

[StSanta]

Come to me, my children. Embrace my rulings.

[Seeker]

"By "Leftist" I mean like the neo-nazi types like communist apologists, pop-socialist idiot young rich people "

Ah, he means the Kennedys.

[GRUNHERZ]

Rule by santa......  I donno would we be forced to make toys or semethin?

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Rule by santa......  I donno would we be forced to make toys or semethin?

Er, sexual toys, leather whips, human 'stirrups' and the such I'd expect  

[Lance]

Lol, I say we all pitch in and buy Grunherz a rage against the machine album for christmas.

[gavor]

mietla,

Sorry, i wasnt accusing you of being rabid, apologies if thats how you read it. I'm not looking for an arguement or slanging match either. I meant GH with some of his comments, a RATM album would make him an ideal gift.

I'm going to stop talking about marx and communism, I dont agree with him or what he said and I dont think he was a great man. But the fundamental ideal, regardless of the reality or your own personal prejudice against it, was ok. The people provided everything to the state and the state then supported the people. There should theoretically have been a lot of personal freedom. I see I am going to have to go back to my history books and do some russian revolution reading.

So in summary, communism bad, Gavor not support communism or marxism. Marx's ideas turned out to be unworkable and worse, they provided a perfect platform for certain people to exploit the common man.

 

true, but see, the Montana Whackos do not extort a half of my paycheck. They have all the guns they want, and yet they are not capable of doing it. Enter the libs, no guns, and yet MORE that a half of my income is gone. Just think of it. From Jan 1 till July "someting", I'm breaking my back for someone else's benefit. And I resent that with all my heart.

Obviously you dont like paying taxes? I'd prefer not to start a new discussion on taxes  .

 

totalitarianism = BAD
individial freedom = good

Agreed.

 

What twisted mind had invented te "school lunch" anyway? You mean you send your son or a daughter to school hungry hoping that someone will feed your child out of pitty?

Hehe. Im not sure this happens, at least, I always had my food packed by my mother. If i wanted anything extra AT school I had to pay for it.

I'm not sure i agree with the last two paragraphs, maybe i dont properly understand what you were on about. I'm fine with paying taxes and the govt taking care of things that make my life that much easier and 'free-er'. ie roads, public buildings, health insurance, whatever, whatever. When I have children, which can't be that far off, I agree that i'll provide food and shelter et al for them thank you very much. But there are certain 'goodies' I'm happy with.

Anyway, thats it for another confused jumbled post. Its hard posting from work.  

[midnight Target]

To me
totalitarianism = BAD
individial freedom = good

As you said, live and let live. I don't want/expect any "goodies" (long list of gunk if you ask) from the libs, in return LIVE ME ALONE, PLEASE. I can feed my children, thank you very much.

 

I often hear this from conservatives. IMHO though, the main-stream conservatives in this country want to protect only the civil liberties of those with the money and or power to not need protection.

The true measure of a democracy is not how well it follows the wishes of the majority, it is how well it protects the rights of the minority.

Civil liberties are for everyone, even those you may disagree with, or even hate.

[mietla]

Originally posted by Tah Gut:
The true measure of a democracy is not how well it follows the wishes of the majority, it is how well it protects the rights of the minority.

Civil liberties are for everyone, even those you may disagree with, or even hate.

Absolutely, but civil rights do not include the right to a job, right to welfare nor a right to a house.

Civil Rights simply mean that the government  will not punish you for your views and it will not interfere with your pursuit of happiness.

They do not mean that the goverment is obligated to deliver happiness/house/job/welfare/free lunch to you.