Author Topic: Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian  (Read 6016 times)

Offline Simaril

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Neo-Darwinian Fundamentalism at the Smithsonian
« Reply #315 on: August 31, 2005, 06:31:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirLoin
Faith imho is irrational and the source of most of the world's attrocities/problems.


I imagine you take that belief on faith...
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #316 on: August 31, 2005, 07:56:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Nice recap of popular propaganda there, Falcon.

Course, some scholars might suggest that there were economic (serfdom), political (feudalism and the anarchy of power vacuums), and social (black plague) influences to slow progress down -- but who am I to get in the way of a polemicist on a mission?


Ever hear of Thomas Aquinas? Medieval scholasticist who extensively argued that creation was an expression of the character of God, and thus was orderly and comprehensible? That understanding creation would give insight into the nature of the creator? Prior to him, university professors were  locked into the Greek tradition, and treated Aristotle as divine writ; if it didnt jive with aristotle it was out of bounds.


Love to see any references you have to actual scientists actually being burned....


How dare you take away the anti-ID crowd's favorite scare tactic, Simaril!  Shame on you. ;)

BTW, Falcon, neither my Webster's or my MS Word Thesauris listed "create" and "design" as synonims.  If yours did, then so be it.  However, it is still simplton logic to claim that just because the two root words are synomonis that the concepts embodied in "creationism" and "ID" are as well.  I will admit (how could I not?) that ID is a requirement of creationsism (the litteral interpretation of Genesis, with God as the designer), but the opposite can not be said.

I guess what I have to ask the materialist crowd is, if (and admittedly the question is still undecided) a designer was involved at some stage of the development of life on Earth, is it not worth trying to find evidence of that?  Claims of "it's not 'real' science" aside, it is nonetheless a quest for truth and understanding.  Is that not ultimately what science is about?  Again I point to such diciplins as archeology, cryptography, and forensics as classic examples which are in effect a search for signs of intelligent agents.  Yet, I've never heard anyone claim that such pursuits are "not real science," and thus not worth pursuing.  I guess I just don't get what the evolutionist crowd is so afraid of.  Why can't the two co-exist, with researchers (let's fore go the argument of whether either group are "true scientists") working to advance both ideas?  Certainly there are areas where both camps agree, such as micro-evolution and (at least for some ID theorists like Behe) common descent.  Why the vitriol and witchhunt tactics like was used against Sternberg?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 08:01:24 AM by Sabre »
Sabre
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #317 on: August 31, 2005, 09:45:19 AM »
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Originally posted by Simaril
Love to see any references you have to actual scientists actually being burned....


How about after being convicted of heresy, being forced to stifle the truth and placed on house arrest for the rest of his life under threat of worse?

"But it does move"  Galileo

But you wanted references to an actual burning....

How about

  Giordano Bruno
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #318 on: August 31, 2005, 09:46:54 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
How about after being convicted of heresy, being forced to stifle the truth and placed on house arrest for the rest of his life under threat of worse?

"But it does move"  Galileo

But you wanted references to an actual burning....

How about

  Giordano Bruno


Just cause I'm an attention potato I would like to point out that I referenced Bruno in my first post of this thread... So give me my props!

Offline Nash

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« Reply #319 on: August 31, 2005, 09:47:34 AM »
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Originally posted by moot
"Real faith" is a misnomer.


Aww... I was pretty happy with that combination of words, personally. ;)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #320 on: August 31, 2005, 09:49:52 AM »
Mea culpa MT...
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #321 on: August 31, 2005, 10:00:31 AM »
It's cool. I'm feeling much better now.

Ya'll go ahead on and enjoy your discussion of the fable of creations.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #322 on: August 31, 2005, 10:04:41 AM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It's cool. I'm feeling much better now.


The prozac's kickin' in, uh?
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Offline lothar

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« Reply #323 on: August 31, 2005, 10:07:44 AM »
Sabre,

Based on my personal experience from converstations with a wide range of folks from my wifes church, is that they presume or assume ID or Creationism.

To me, science is asking "How?", and then trying to figure it out by whatever methods best fit the question.  With ID or Creationism the "How?" question tends to be answered "Becuase it was designed, you don't need to know...".  ID and Creatism presume the answer and you data mine to fit your conclusion, and yes, this practice is human nature and not limited to ID or Creationist, it's just more prevelant.

Since my wife is a Christian, I have been associating with Christians and have attended a wide number of churches regularly over the last 15 years.  I even got baptised in a Baptist Church in my twenties.   I've seen people pull themselves out of addictions and restore thier marriages because of the support they get from the community they find in church.  
I've also seen people (from church) fail at these same things, with the same community and hundreds of people praying for them.  I watched hundreds of times as people gathered and laid hands on the sick, they got better after they went to the doctor.   But they claim "God healed me....".  They talk about demons and healings that happen all the time in third world countries in Africa and Asia, far away from any form of verification.  

I've talked to a close friend who is a Christian.  He wants to go to some place near Dallas and see the human foot print next to the dinasuar tracks.  I didn't have the heart (or courage) to tell him that myth has been debunked numerous times.  

I stop considering my self a Christian about 10 years ago, mainly because I couldn't stand to associate with (or be associated with) most hard core Born Again Christians.  I've seen changes in my wife that I think are not emotionally healthy that are due to her "re-dedication to God".  They can see, but are yet blind...

Keep ID and Creationism in Church.  It's not science, it's religion.

lothar

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Offline moot

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« Reply #324 on: August 31, 2005, 10:30:21 AM »
Not arguing your sense of wordplay, Nash..
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Offline Samiam

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« Reply #325 on: August 31, 2005, 12:41:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre

I guess what I have to ask the materialist crowd is, if (and admittedly the question is still undecided) a designer was involved at some stage of the development of life on Earth, is it not worth trying to find evidence of that?  


If there is a critter such as the Yeti, and there's all kinds of folkloric and some claim even physical evidence that there is, is in not worth trying to prove it?

A search for Yeti can be done in a very scientific fashion and there may be plenty of people who think it's a worthwhile endeavor and there may even be governments who would fund it.

But don't ask for my tax dollars to fund it and don't teach Yeti as being anything other than folklore to my children in school.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #326 on: August 31, 2005, 01:01:07 PM »
Lothar: I appreciate the sincerity of your post.  Again, I can only stress that belief in any particular religion is not a prerequisite for either questioning Darwinistic Evolution or looking for evidence of design in nature.  ID does not require you believe in a supernatural “god” (although as I have already pointed out, Creationism requires belief in a “designer”) or in the literal interpretation of ancient scriptures.  Plenty of ID proponents do not subscribe to creationism (either young-earth or old-earth varieties).  The simple premise is that (A) undirected (i.e. no guiding intelligence) forces are either inadequate or completely fail to explain certain aspects of the origins or complexity of life, (B) that an intelligent agent’s involvement would better explain that complexity (at the cellular level and, possibly, at the level of origins of higher life forms), and (C) that it should therefore be possible to detect that design influence.  The tools to detect that design are the same used by archeology, cryptology, and forensic sciences.

Regarding the “how” question as you put it, I think you have it wrong there.  ID does not start from a premise of “how”, but of “who/what”, i.e. an intelligent designer.  The search for “how” would continue, much as it does today.  Should ID someday become widely accepted as a competing theory for Darwinism, it would not put an end to that search for “how.”  Why you believe it would is not clear to me.  Even if design influence is conclusively proven, why would that end study into the many aspects of evolution that are not in conflict with ID?  Indeed, as competing theories, I expect both lines of study would continue in parallel, since some will always remain unconvinced.  Once we understand that “something/someone” designed aspects of our planetary biology, we would still have to pursue the “how” and even the “why”.  Indeed, simply knowing a thing can be done often spurs us on to learn how it was done.  This is often what happens in reverse engineering.  Looked at another way, Darwinistic evolutionists assume no designer, thus they spend tremendous energy and resources trying to explain how everything happened by accident.  However, if it is learned conclusively that a designer was involved in the origins of life or the species, should they ignore that fact, and continue to stubbornly ignore it?  A big “if”, I know, but does that mean we shouldn’t try to find out?

Many things not considered “true science” (though who decides what that means is unclear) are nonetheless considered serious and worthwhile pursuits.  Whether one considers ID to fall under this dubious moniker or not, it is still worth questioning.  If sufficient evidence supports it, that evidence should be taught in schools.  It does not at this time, but we know not what the future holds.

Put aside your understandable concern regarding religion, and tell me: If SETI suddenly announced it had received radio signals that were so complex and so specific (i.e. repeating, non-random signals that contained decipherable information of some sort), such they could not with any reasonable probability have been generated randomly, should the scientific community ignore it?  Would you?  Certainly some might (religious fundamentalists might very well do so, if they felt it would cause the collapse of their particular brand-X of religion).  Other, more reasonable people would have to adapt their world view and conclude that “we are not alone in the universe.”  They might even adapt their beliefs to accept it without dropping most of the basic tenants of those beliefs (faith is like that).  Indeed, every time some aspect of Darwinism has been proven inadequate, its practitioners and high priests have shown a remarkable ability to instantly generate new hypotheses about how evolution allows this.  Rarely is this new hypothesis amenable to either testing or falsifiability, the twin icons of “scientific-ness.”
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #327 on: August 31, 2005, 01:06:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Samiam
If there is a critter such as the Yeti, and there's all kinds of folkloric and some claim even physical evidence that there is, is in not worth trying to prove it?

A search for Yeti can be done in a very scientific fashion and there may be plenty of people who think it's a worthwhile endeavor and there may even be governments who would fund it.

But don't ask for my tax dollars to fund it and don't teach Yeti as being anything other than folklore to my children in school.


If the evidence became strong enough, and enough people thought it worthwhile, then I don't doubt we'd end up spending tax dollars on it.  Since we (or at least I) live in a democracy, where our government is supposed to act according to the wishes of The People, that is as it should be.  And I've already agreed that teaching ID in science classes at our public schools is inappropriate at this time.
Sabre
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Offline Samiam

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« Reply #328 on: August 31, 2005, 01:45:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre

Put aside your understandable concern regarding religion, and tell me: If SETI suddenly announced it had received radio signals that were so complex and so specific (i.e. repeating, non-random signals that contained decipherable information of some sort), such they could not with any reasonable probability have been generated randomly, should the scientific community ignore it?  Would you?  


Sabre, you keep using SETI as an analogy and, while there's an analogy it DOES NOT support your argument.

NASA stopped funding for SETI in 1993 because it was not good science and not a rational way to spend taxpayer dollars.

SETI is based in the premise  that it's a massively large and complex universe and it's arrogant to believe that Earth is the only planet that can support life and even more arrogant to think that a planet that could support life wouldn't eventually be inhabited by intelligent beings. This is basically non-science. There's nothing observed - other than a large and complex universe - that should lead us to believe that we will find radiographic proof of intelligent life.

The point is whether SETI should be taught as science in school. If my child's  science teacher states that there is mostly likely intelligent life out there and SETI is our best chance at find it, I'll have a problem with that as teaching non-science in science class. If ,rather, the teacher says there's this thing called SETI which isn't really based on science - and explains why - but it's romantic and people want to pursue it anyway, I'm mostly OK with that.

ID is based on a similarly non-specific premise that life is complex and we don't understand how all of it works yet and therefore it's arrogant to think that there's not some intelligent force at work. On that premise we can set forth with the "science" (it's really more of a quest) of proving it. All fine and good - just don't ask for taxpayer money to fund the quest and don't teach my child - in a science class - that there's any scientific legitimacy to the quest.

Offline lothar

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« Reply #329 on: August 31, 2005, 02:52:06 PM »
Sabre,

Thank you for the reply.   I agree, neither ID (as described in your email) nor Evolution is falsifiable or empirically testable, at this time.  New Earth Creationism is both easily falsifiable and testable.  

I've just started reading a book my wife bought called "A Case for Creation" by Lee Strobel.  While I've only skimmed a few pages, most of his examples that I saw for Creation or ID or against Evolution are very misleading.  He is pre-biased and data mined.  He is supposed to be an Investigative Reporter, yet he uses the Miller/Urey experiment as proof that evolution couldn't happen.  The test was flawed because the atmospheric conditions used in the test later turned to inaccurate.  Yet, no mention is made of Joan Oro who did a similar experiment in 1961 with updated conditions or the many variations tried later on, each able (as far as I know) to reproduce nucleotides of adenine, the base for RNA and DNA, or samples from comets that contain numerous varitians fo amino acids... this list goes on, yet this is what 90% of the Christians I hang out with believe to the gospel truth.  I personally believe this guy saw an opportunity to make a lot of money off of gullible Christians by telling them exactly what they want to hear.

If God or god or an alien landed and said "Hey dad, come look at what I made in the puddle in the back yard..", of course, it would make a difference.  The statement about SETI is begging the answer.

I'll tell you my fear:
  ID, from what I've read and heard from people who strongly believe in it, is being used as a method to get God and Jesus into public schools.  It's the Trojan Horse for Creationism.  I've heard this with my own ears, not from a friend of a friend, but first hand. This is based on personal experience.  IF ID is taught, as it stands today, as a science, it will morph into Creationism.   The will to learn the "How?" will suffer.   A lot of folks don't want to see their God go from "God, the Creator of the Universe" to "god, the engineer who can't leave stuff alone..." I've seen it happen at Church.  These are college-educated professionals.  I listen to these conversations and listen to them pray for public schools to be "Set free from the bonds of Satan..." and I hear the political agenda of a lot of Christians and I'm afraid for my children's future.  The thirst for understanding will take a huge step backwards to be replaced by "Worship' and "Prayer".

The only people I see pushing ID are Christians.  That scares me, it is creationism wrapped in a new package for better mass appeal.

lothar


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Edited to remove MS Word characters...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 03:31:24 PM by lothar »