Author Topic: Clinton's Watch  (Read 1819 times)

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2005, 05:51:28 PM »
Doctor I don't agree with you.  If clinton woud have taken more action and told the rest to poiund sand when they say he's trying to avert a scandel I'd have 10 fold more respect for him.  He didn't.  He was the type of person that had to take an opinion pole for everything.

IMHO AQ is like a virus.  The first infection was on his watch.  They started a war and now we are fighting it...nuff said from me on that.  As far as us causing more jihadism I dont agree.  If you look at the numbers of jihadis that flooded to afgahnistan during the russian invasion it pales in comparison to iraq today.  

The reason I started this thread is not because of Bush but because of history.  History is currently being rewritten with Clinton having a good legacy.  I whole heartedly disagree.

Raider you want to use body count as a yardstick to measure the scale of the attack be my guest.  Clinton did that during his 8 years and completly igrnored the problem.

khobar towers 19 U.S. servicemen and one Saudi were killed and 372 wounded.
African Embassy Bombings: Nairobi, where the embassy was located in a busy downtown area, 213 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the embassy was further from the city center, and the attack killed at least 12 and wounded 85.
USS Cole 17 sailors were killed and 39 others were injured

Even one attack on a US interest is too much.  They weren't that "small scale" to those that were there and they definatly weren't that "small scale" to those familys that lost loved ones.  Now I know what you are going to do you are going to change the subject and ignore what I said because you know you're wrong and play the Iraq card so be my guest.

Offline Skydancer

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1606
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2005, 06:50:32 PM »
He was allright he came to Birmingham and had chips in the pub down by the canal! Not sure what watch he wore though!


Offline Raider179

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2005, 07:17:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
 He was the type of person that had to take an opinion pole for everything.

The reason I started this thread is not because of Bush but because of history.  History is currently being rewritten with Clinton having a good legacy.  I whole heartedly disagree.

Raider you want to use body count as a yardstick to measure the scale of the attack be my guest.  Clinton did that during his 8 years and completly igrnored the problem.

khobar towers 19 U.S. servicemen and one Saudi were killed and 372 wounded.
African Embassy Bombings: Nairobi, where the embassy was located in a busy downtown area, 213 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the embassy was further from the city center, and the attack killed at least 12 and wounded 85.
USS Cole 17 sailors were killed and 39 others were injured

Even one attack on a US interest is too much.  They weren't that "small scale" to those that were there and they definatly weren't that "small scale" to those familys that lost loved ones.  Now I know what you are going to do you are going to change the subject and ignore what I said because you know you're wrong and play the Iraq card so be my guest.


Yeah really sucks to have a President do what the people

want. :rolleyes:

Maybe History see's Clinton as not that bad after the mess Bush has created.

As for the numbers on Nairobi your math is purposely misleading.

"twelve Americans were killed in Nairobi" Your same wikipedia source. And no americans in Dar es Salaam were killed.
So ALL the attacks you cite add up to 54 American deaths(including WTC #1), like I said it pales in comparison to 9/11.

Thats 54 over a 7 year period as well. That number is not high enough to spark public opinion into fighting a war on terrorism. Nor is it justification for going into a country and killing thousands just to make a point. It took 9/11 for America to have the justification to go to war. Guess that will fly right over your head though.

Dont forget that USS Cole was attacked 3 months prior to Bush coming in office. So again you can't just lay the blame at 1 person's doorstep.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2005, 07:42:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Yeah really sucks to have a President do what the people

want. :rolleyes:

Maybe History see's Clinton as not that bad after the mess Bush has created.

As for the numbers on Nairobi your math is purposely misleading.

"twelve Americans were killed in Nairobi" Your same wikipedia source. And no americans in Dar es Salaam were killed.
So ALL the attacks you cite add up to 54 American deaths(including WTC #1), like I said it pales in comparison to 9/11.

Thats 54 over a 7 year period as well. That number is not high enough to spark public opinion into fighting a war on terrorism. Nor is it justification for going into a country and killing thousands just to make a point. It took 9/11 for America to have the justification to go to war. Guess that will fly right over your head though.

Dont forget that USS Cole was attacked 3 months prior to Bush coming in office. So again you can't just lay the blame at 1 person's doorstep.


yea let's just ignore the small stuff until it get's bigger.  Let's not do what's right let's do what's popular.  You see were I'm goin.  The head could have been cut off and the body rendered useless.  THAT is why Bush is irrelevent to this conversation.  THAT is why "small scale" or not the problem was ignored.  And yes you can lay blame, it was his watch.  The signs were there, he could have acted...and didn't.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 07:53:44 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Raider179

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2005, 07:54:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
yea let's just ignore the small stuff until it get's bigger.  Let's not do what's right let's do what's popular.  You see were I'm goin.  The head could have been cut off and the body rendered useless.  THAT is why Bush is irrelevent to this conversation.  THAT is why "small scale" or not the problem was ignored.  And yes you can lay blame, it was his watch.  The signs were there, he could have acted...and didn't.


How do you know that would have been better for us? You are just making a hypothetical situation. You have no idea if we even could have killed OBL had we made the attempt. You have no idea what killing OBL might have done to stir the Islamic community.Like I said we needed "justification" for striking at the terrorists in Soveriegn countries and we didn't have it. Not until 9/11 and that happened under Bush's watch.

 They were both asleep at the wheel, difference is Bush had no political scandals keeping him from acting against AQ, perhaps you could point me to what he did prior to 9/11 to kill OBL???Bush never cared about OBL, all he wanted was Iraq.

Did you think AQ was a big threat during Clinton's presidency or just in hindsight? How many letters did you write to your Senators and Reps asking them to do something about AQ? Let me guess a big fat zero.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2005, 08:28:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
How do you know that would have been better for us? You are just making a hypothetical situation. You have no idea if we even could have killed OBL had we made the attempt. You have no idea what killing OBL might have done to stir the Islamic community.Like I said we needed "justification" for striking at the terrorists in Soveriegn countries and we didn't have it. Not until 9/11 and that happened under Bush's watch.

 They were both asleep at the wheel, difference is Bush had no political scandals keeping him from acting against AQ, perhaps you could point me to what he did prior to 9/11 to kill OBL???Bush never cared about OBL, all he wanted was Iraq.

Did you think AQ was a big threat during Clinton's presidency or just in hindsight? How many letters did you write to your Senators and Reps asking them to do something about AQ? Let me guess a big fat zero.


well 4 plus attacks on AMERICAN targets during his Admin I would hope that he was thinking about them.  He probably thought the same way you did.  "small scale"  He wasn't all that good of president and his record shows it.  Bush won't be that much better.  He had the oppertunity and blew it.  They were monitoring OBL in the Sudan and but did not have the charter to operate.  If somone was responsible fore all the poeple he's killed or injured I think I would have acted on it.  Of course the opinion poll at the time probably sudjested otherwise.  Better to be popular and leave a legacy than to act on what's right.

Offline AWMac

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9251
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2005, 09:08:13 PM »
As if Clinton knew the differance between "Scratchin his Watch or Winding his Asss"

Wuss Prez... Get it Straight, First he denied smokin herb in College..."I never inhaled.."  Too "I never had sexual relations with that woman"

PaaaaLeez... if you are too frikken stupid to know if yer gettin stoned *AOL Clue Word "HIGH"* or gettin sex *AOL Clue Word "HEAD"* then maybe you need to take that last flyin Leap.

Clinton was a Moron and will always be.  Hillery is just another one.  Frikken Imbreds. But hell, welcome to Arkansas...

What a Country....

Mac

Offline jpeg

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
      • http://www.steveo.us
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2005, 09:46:29 PM »
LOL, if you guys think al-queda started during clinton's watch then you really need to do some more reading/research.

I have two things to say about this issue.

1. All politicians lie, cheat etc etc. Its all about money, the world revolves around it.

2. Clinton's lieing to congress/jury/world etc did not make my friends (and lots of other people I know) go to a country to fight a war against people (who could not harm the U.S. at all) under false acusations/lies.

I have had my friends come back from OIF but still know some people over there (and now I heard the other day that even one of my squad members
is going over there soon) so I just hope that they come back real soon, unharmed, as I do for all our soldiers over there.

Peace.

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2005, 09:46:49 PM »
Mosgood, ole Slick has plenty of brains.  Unfortunately they're located south of the border.

A chief executive who chases skirts without regard for public opinion or the potential consequences IS a security risk.  Kennedy had the same sickness.  Are you not aware that the East German government hooked him up with a blonde bombshell, and that the Kennedy administration had her spirited out of the country when her connection to a communist government was discovered?  That type of personal donutdello is a security agency's nightmare.

I'm sorry...but it WASN'T "...just about sex."

However, my main beef against Clinton was that he refused to learn from history.  Specifically he refused to learn from the valuable lessons of the previous century, during which the U.S. became involved in three major wars dependent upon military forces that had been effectively neutered by idiotic disarmament and isolationist policies.  Indeed, the nation's forces were so anemic in manpower and equipment as a result of those policies, that the first six months after Pearl Harbor proved to be nearly disastrous.  Production capacity eventually pulled us out of that fiasco, but in this age of modern technology, such a miracle might not happen again.

Indeed, what sense did it make for the Clinton Administration to slash the military budget when U.S. forces are commited to defending vast stretches of the globe?  The answer to that question is "none."

His attitude towards the military was shaped by the anti-war rhetoric of the 1960s.  During the first two years of his administration, members of Clinton's staff displayed open hostility towards members of the military who were summoned to the White House for presidential briefings.  

Clinton and his yippie staff never understood that the main task of the government is to provide security for the nation...not to redistribute wealth.  Therefore, he and his staff couldn't see the necessity of accepting the offer of a middle eastern government to turn over Osama Ben Laden.  One would think that after the first bombing of the World Trade Center that they would jump at the chance of capturing a major terrorist leader who openly threatened the government and people of the United States...but such was not the case.  The man simply wasn't on their radar screen.

One could say, I suppose, that he had the good sense to keep his hands off of a rapidly booming economy.  Yet, I doubt he would have shown such restraint if his policies had not caused his party to lose control of the House of Representitives in the congressional elections of 1994.  His first two years prior to that event had all the hallmarks of being a touchie-feelie, solve all our problems with social programs, spendfest.

The economy would have grown during that period regardless of whether of not Clinton was in office.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 09:50:10 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Raider179

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2005, 10:38:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
well 4 plus attacks on AMERICAN targets during his Admin I would hope that he was thinking about them.  He probably thought the same way you did.  "small scale"  He wasn't all that good of president and his record shows it.  Bush won't be that much better.  He had the oppertunity and blew it.  They were monitoring OBL in the Sudan and but did not have the charter to operate.  If somone was responsible fore all the poeple he's killed or injured I think I would have acted on it.  Of course the opinion poll at the time probably sudjested otherwise.  Better to be popular and leave a legacy than to act on what's right.



How many chances did we have to stop 9/11 and our people failed? I am talking about having Zacarias Moussaoui in custody prior to 9/11 and not being able to break him. I am talking about the female FBI agent that warned of Muslims taking flying lessons and how it should be looked into. I am talking about "Able Danger". Clinton didn't fail us, our system did.

An active-duty Navy captain has become the second military officer to come forward publicly to say that a secret defense intelligence program tagged the ringleader of the Sept. 11 attacks as a possible terrorist more than a year before the attacks.

The officer, Scott J. Phillpott, said in a statement today that he could not discuss details of the military program, which was called Able Danger, but confirmed that its analysts had identified the Sept. 11 ringleader, Mohamed Atta, by name by early 2000. "My story is consistent," said Captain Phillpott, who managed the program for the Pentagon's Special Operations Command. "Atta was identified by Able Danger by January-February of 2000."

His comments came on the same day that the Pentagon's chief spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, told reporters that the Defense Department had been unable to validate the assertions made by an Army intelligence veteran, Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, and now backed up by Captain Phillpott, about the early identification of Mr. Atta.

Colonel Shaffer went public with his assertions last week, saying that analysts in the intelligence project had been overruled by military lawyers when they tried to share the program's findings with the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 2000 in hope of tracking down terror suspects tied to Al Qaeda.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/22/politics/23cnd-intel.html?ei=5094&en=ed47ced9232725eb&hp=&ex=1124769600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2005, 12:15:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
How many chances did we have to stop 9/11 and our people failed? I am talking about having Zacarias Moussaoui in custody prior to 9/11 and not being able to break him. I am talking about the female FBI agent that warned of Muslims taking flying lessons and how it should be looked into. I am talking about "Able Danger". Clinton didn't fail us, our system did.

An active-duty Navy captain has become the second military officer to come forward publicly to say that a secret defense intelligence program tagged the ringleader of the Sept. 11 attacks as a possible terrorist more than a year before the attacks.

The officer, Scott J. Phillpott, said in a statement today that he could not discuss details of the military program, which was called Able Danger, but confirmed that its analysts had identified the Sept. 11 ringleader, Mohamed Atta, by name by early 2000. "My story is consistent," said Captain Phillpott, who managed the program for the Pentagon's Special Operations Command. "Atta was identified by Able Danger by January-February of 2000."

His comments came on the same day that the Pentagon's chief spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, told reporters that the Defense Department had been unable to validate the assertions made by an Army intelligence veteran, Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, and now backed up by Captain Phillpott, about the early identification of Mr. Atta.

Colonel Shaffer went public with his assertions last week, saying that analysts in the intelligence project had been overruled by military lawyers when they tried to share the program's findings with the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 2000 in hope of tracking down terror suspects tied to Al Qaeda.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/22/politics/23cnd-intel.html?ei=5094&en=ed47ced9232725eb&hp=&ex=1124769600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print


yup and why do you think all of that is?

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2005, 12:44:00 AM »
Clinton was a closet Republican (not the sex and lying part though as that could be from any party).
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2005, 12:45:40 AM »
Mighty fine fellow!

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2005, 12:50:46 AM »
if i got an report penned by some twit pentagon captain named Philpott I'd probably ****-can it too.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline lada

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1810
Clinton's Watch
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2005, 04:48:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
Best cigar advertising EVAR!



OMG Saw you gave me lady throuses :O

Did you note that ?

Anyway im back :)

Now i have to sort out my brain to speak just one language :D