Author Topic: Church Bombings... (Read 1563 times)

Nash · « **Reply #30 on:** August 30, 2005, 08:55:20 PM »

Interesting thread.

And I think SOB is (as he put it in another thread) "onto something."

I mean lookit...

The city has got all these basic nondescript buildings all over the place.... then out of nowhere, a CHURCH!

Did Pyro come up with a Dice of Civilian Destruction ... each side adorned with the words "School" and "Hospital" and "Orphanage" and alas, "Church?" Did the dice just randomly land on "Church?"

Highly unlikely. So what factored into this particularly dubious game design decision?

Did HT poke his head into Nate & Supe's cube and whisper "One word, gentlemen: Church," and leave with a wink?

Waaaay more likely than a Dice of Civilian Destruction, is it not?

Therefore, HT hates the baby Jesus.

detch01 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:06:06 PM »

LOL Seagoon -you oughta be ashamed of yourself for chuming out of season!:rofl

asw

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:16:10 PM »

I give it a 6.

BlueJ1 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:18:49 PM »

Seagoon · « **Reply #34 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:22:01 PM »

Hi guys,

Well, I guess some issues are better addressed via email to HTC, and this was apparently one of them. Please forgive me for asking in public. My intention was not to troll, and sometimes I really do get lulled into a false sense of security and forget the amount of animus felt towards Christians around here.

The number of Chaplains honorably serving in the armed forces should be a give away that the majority of Christian denominations are not and never have believed that the bible taught absolute pacificism, but have always held that as long as this "present evil age" lasts, some limited war will be necessary if only so that magistrates might be able to defend their people against evildoers.

As he mentioned, Dredlock asked this question and the "why is a Pastor playing a wargame?", some months ago here then is the answer I gave him:

Quote

I play this as a wargame, just like I also play Stratego and Risk and so on. I stick to the rules of the game, and try to fly as a Christian man. Without swearing, cheating, getting furious, engaging in lewd discourse or becoming hopelessly addicted (which for Christians are frankly the greater dangers in this or any other on-line experience).

Now, popping up to the higher level question, i.e. Christians and War. The 6th Commandment in the Decalogue is not "Thou Shalt not Kill" in the Hebrew it is "Lo Ratsach" - no murder. This is an important difference, for it allows for the slaughtering of animals for food, and gives the magistrate the power to wage war against evil doers and to use capital punishment (particularly in the case or murder). This is explicitly spelled out in Gen 9:6, and Romans 13:4.

Additionally, the calling of Soldier is an honorable one, and not forbidden to Christians. So for instance in Luke 3 the soldiers who ask John the Baptist "What should we do" are not told to cease being Soldiers, but to cease from being dishonest, likewise Jesus commends a Centurion for his faith in Him in Mark 8:10-12 and states explicitly that he will be in heaven. Peter likewise in Acts 10 visits the house of Cornelius, baptizing him and his family and declaring they have been saved. At no point are these men told, your vocation is absolutely at odds with Christianity as say prostitution or thievery clearly are.

When is a war "just" has been a question of concern to Christian theologians and laymen for centuries, and for instance during the second world war C.S. Lewis did a radio series for the BBC explaining just war theory and why the war against the axis met the criteria. Here is a brief outline of what general rules of just war Christian theologians have distilled from scripture:

1. Just cause. All active aggression is condemned; only a defensive war is legitimate. However, if it is obvious that the other side is clearly preparing for aggression based on solid evidence and past performance a justifiable "first strike" would be allowable.

2. Just intention. The only legitimate intention of a just war is to eventually and, as soon as practicable, secure a just peace. Wars of economic gain, religious expansion/control, revenge, or ideology are unacceptable.

3. Last resort. War can only be begun when all good faith discussions, compromises and negotiations have failed. Again this is hard to gauge if one side is not honestly participating in the effort.

4. Government involvement and formal declaration. This is the action of government not individuals. Some sort of "state of war" must be clearly declared. In this day of terrorist organizations that are not under a government clouds this; states supporting such terrorist organizations would then be held responsible for terrorist acts.

5. Limited objectives. If the purpose of war is ultimately peace, then total destruction of the nation is not just. Only narrow war-fighting objectives that bring the war to a successful conclusion are legitimate. Blanket bombing, gassing, the destruction of a people's way of life is not warranted.

6. Proportional means. This is tied closely to #5, the type of weaponry and tactics employed should be limited to secure the limited objectives (repelling the aggressor, deterring future illegal attacks, removing specific aggressive individuals/groups from power).

7. Protection for non-combatants. Since war fighting is a declared, official act of organized government, only those who are active agents of that government (its fighting soldiers--not POWs, casualties, civilian non-participants) may fight. Others should be protected from aggressive acts of violence.
(These general "just war" guidelines were taken from an article by Arthur F. Holmes, "The Just War," 1981.).

Hope this is of use to someone,

Now getting back to AH2 and the critical difference between the structure of the game and the actual second world war. Admittedly, and regretfully, countless churches, schools, hospitals and other civilian targets were in fact destroyed by bombing, but the critical difference was, that unless the Geneva convention had already been violated by enemy forces using them for military purposes (as the allies suspected had happened at Monte Casino) they were never specifically targeted for destruction. In other words, with that exception, allied pilots never received a briefing - "Here Gentlemen are your targets, these houses, this hospital, and these two small churches" At no point was the destruction of hospitals/churches etc. anything but unfortunate collateral damage. In AH2 however they are primary targets, their destruction is absolutely necessary if the war is to be won. In fact, it is more important to target and destroy the churches than the hangers as you can take an airfield in an entirely intact condition, but the town must be entirely flattened. You see the critical difference?

BlueJ1 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:26:04 PM »

That is probally one of the best posts toward defending ones opinion Ive ever seen.

SOB · « **Reply #36 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:38:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Seagoon
Well, I guess some issues are better addressed via email to HTC, and this was apparently one of them. Please forgive me for asking in public. My intention was not to troll, and sometimes I really do get lulled into a false sense of security and forget the amount of animus felt towards Christians around here.

Sorry Seagoon, but I for one simply think your concern for a building in a flight simulator is just plain silly. You can blame it on this supposed surplus of animosity towards Christians you see, but I just don't see it.

FalconSix · « **Reply #37 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:47:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Seagoon
Admittedly, and regretfully, countless churches, schools, hospitals and other civilian targets were in fact destroyed by bombing, but the critical difference was, that unless the Geneva convention had already been violated by enemy forces using them for military purposes (as the allies suspected had happened at Monte Casino) they were never specifically targeted for destruction.

You have to be kidding. Ask the people of Dresden or Hamburg or Hiroshima or Nagasaki if they were in violation of the Geneva Conventions when the US and UK air forces were razing their entire cities to the ground killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. They were deliberately targeted for destruction, including their churches and hospitals and kindergartens etc.

Good Christian American and British airmen.

Russian · « **Reply #38 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:55:23 PM »

Annihilating religion - one simulated church at a time.

Nash · « **Reply #39 on:** August 30, 2005, 09:59:16 PM »

Okay, I've got a new theory...

A meeting was called, and the question was asked: "What would inspire the players to fly higher, fight harder, and be glorious?"

"I dunno..." came the response.

"Well," said HT, "What if there was put into place a meaningful, treasured and universally adored structure that people would rally behind?"

"Go on..." said they.

HT goes on: "What symbol of civilization is the most cherished and beloved in the land?"

The meeting lasted several days. There was much scratching of the head. Finally, on the seventh day, Nate spoketh thusly: "Why, the Church!" said Nate.

"Ah, indeed" said all, in unison.

And on the Seventh Day, HT Created Church.

So the church's presence in AH isn't something to negatively question, but instead.... be appropriately viewed as an out and out miracle.

The symbol of humanity rigidly juxtaposed against the ravages of war, and what did HT choose? A church!

I am not a man of the cloth, yet were I, I would fly just that much higher, and fight just that much harder.

The church.... what an honor its inclusion into this game that is.

SOB · « **Reply #40 on:** August 30, 2005, 10:03:15 PM »

Holy crap! So those runstangs and focke-wussies flying up in the stratosphere are just trying to get closer to god?! Man, was I wrong about them!

Hangtime · « **Reply #41 on:** August 30, 2005, 10:16:50 PM »

I guess I'm the only one to laugh maniacaly while flying thu the pieces of a nice feshly straffed vitual church.

VOR · « **Reply #42 on:** August 30, 2005, 10:18:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by FalconSix
You have to be kidding. Ask the people of Dresden or Hamburg or Hiroshima or Nagasaki.....

Ask them what?
*knock knock*
"Umm...still there?"

FalconSix · « **Reply #43 on:** August 30, 2005, 10:19:56 PM »

They're still there. We didn't kill ALL of them you know. We just tried to.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #44 on:** August 30, 2005, 11:16:25 PM »

I agree with Seagoon. Let's get rid of the church and replace it with an orphanage. Or a hospital.

-- Todd/Leviathn