Rotary PPL

[Chairboy]

I just learned something fascinating.  Apparently, if you have a fixed wing pilot certificate, the FAA minimums for getting your rotary certificate are different.

Instead of 40 hours minimum (starting from nothing), it's something like 16 hours minimum before checkride.  Of course, you'd probably need more time to learn, but even if it took you 30 hours before you were ready, that's a few thousand dollars in savings.

So for about $4K, I could potentially get a rotary license...  I am intrigued.

My learning priority list goes something like this:

1. Tailwheel - cheap
2. Complex - cheap
3. Instrument - espensive
4. Multi-Engine - not so espensive as #3, but not cheap
5. Commercial - Lucy, you gotta lotta hours to get first.
6. CFI

Perhaps I could slip the Rotary endorsement in there somewhere...

[CyranoAH]

4K? Now that's cheap!

Here if you have the PPL/A, you need 30 hours in order to do the checkride.

That's 30 hours x 220 Euro/hr = 6600 Euro. Still cheaper than IR, but much more expensive than ME.

Funny thing is that we don't have a rating for tailwheel or complex. Is that a rating or just a course you can take at a school?

Daniel

[eagl]

Commercial is only a couple hundred hours plus a test.  Not too tough, but it takes time unless you have someone paying for your hours.  Even instrument can be done "on the cheap" by cheating using non-certified simulators to enhance your working knowledge so you get more out of your actual flight and certified sim time.

My Dad flew only a few hours a month and even he got to the 300 hour mark before losing interest and not flying enough to stay current.  It just takes time if you aren't real serious about getting the ratings in a hurry.

But cheap is relative, and it's always easier if you've got someone (a future employer for example) paying for it.  I knew a few guys who flew right seat in fedex puddle jumpers for about a buck an hour, just so someone else would pay for their flight time.  But you gotta give up your regular job to do that so it's usually only the kids that can afford to do it that way.

If you didn't marry rich, you're probably gonna have to pay for your ratings a nickel at a time.  Regardless of what you do, do NOT let your basic skills degenerate.  At the very least, rent the cheapest plane in town and get a dozen hours a month, otherwise you'll just be a danger to yourself and others.

[Chairboy]

Tailwheel and complex aren't ratings, they're just endorsements, so probably the same as in Spain.

30 hours is probably more realistic from some of what I've read, depending on: Use of simulators/natural knack/quality of training, etc.  I'm sure there are guys that can pass their checkride in 10 hours, and others that are still shaky at 50 or worse.

I'm gonna rent the 172 one of these days and fix my night currency.  Haven't flown at night in months, gotta change that so I can take some friends up.  There's a perfect field about 15 miles from where I fly for it, EUG.  Mahlon Sweet is a big lit field with no obstructions around, and it's class D until late in the evening.  A good combination for cleaning some of the rust off.

[Dnil]

shhh dont tell anyone, the school here can get commercial at 126 hours total time.  Its run by delta connection and also has self examination authority on private, intrument and a few others.  Much cheaper then doing it part 61 and getting 250 hours.

[Chairboy]

Part 141?

[Maverick]

If you think renting a Cessna or a Piper is expensive, wait until you price the hourly cost of even a very basic little chopper. The last price I heard about 3 years ago in Tucson was over $120.00 an hour, dry.

[cpxxx]

Probably is Part 141. Other schools I know of like that have a selection process for students too. Most US flight schools have their own examiners or at least a tame examiner on call.

I haven't considered getting a rotary licence. But I was thinking of getting a couple of lessons in a chopper. There a are couple of rotary flight schools at my local field. One uses Schweizers the other Robinsons. I like the look of the Schweizers which is after all the old Hughes 300. Really agricultural. There seems to be more helicopters than aeroplanes at the field these days. What will all the newly rich Irish people desperate to spend their money. Particularly on Robinsons. They're breeding like flies

No I think I'll stick to the fixed wing for now. The people I fly with right now have got three Citations for charters. I was standing there talking to other pilots when the boss came up and said we all need to get our FAA Commericals done. So we can be type rated on the Citations which are N registered. I pointed  out that I don't work for him.  'Not yet' he said but when you do you'll need it.
I guess that amounts to a job offer:flying jets!

[Golfer]

Cheapest helicopter around here goes for $220/hr and it's a little bubble front schweizer.

They also rent a Hughes that I couldn't afford to start.

Delta Connection Academy
FlightSafety Academy
ATP Fast Track
Ari-Ben Aviator
Gulfstream Academy...All crooks who are doing their parts in saturating the pilot market with minimum qualification knuckleheads and shuffling them into 'reseved' airline First Officer jobs at a whopping $18,000-$23,000/yr while ringing the debt gong at around $100,000+

It's not the student's fault either...they're caught up in jet fever that they'll lose all their dignity just to drive an RJ on poverty wages (at least i'm flying piston powered airplanes for poverty wages...not so much a class struggle!) and buy into it being a 'cool job' so it doesn't require compensation.  Ugh...I won't even continue since it'd be a hijack of all hijacked threads.

If you want to know more do a google search for "410 it dude" "Jefferson City" and "Pinnacle" and you'll see what I mean.

[Dnil]

sorry golfer, they arent raping people unless they choose to get raped.  Flying costs are flying costs.....your path to your rating and getting paid to fly is the same as everyone elses.  Only difference is the job options at the end.  Flying RJs with the regionals or flying spamcams out little airports, its your choice the path you want to go.  

Do you want to fly airlines?  if so then might as well start now.  FO pay for all the regionals stinks, no matter who trains you.  The FAA approves of the self examing process not the schools, dont like it blame the FAA.  All the regionals are hiring like mad and they set the hour requirements, not the schools.  If Expressjet is hiring at 600 TT dont blame the school for filling the need.  Is it expensive?  hell yes it is, nothing in flying is cheap.

Having been through 2 flights schools....and the one I am in now is offered by the local college, delta only does the flight portion.  The flying is dramatically different.  The old program you may get done in 3 years with all your ratings, its was horrible.  Now its probably a year with all the ratings if you are committed and apply yourself.  That involves flying a minimum of 5 times a week.  They also have flow through agreements with embry riddle here locally to finish your 4-year degree if you so choose.  Before it was eventually get your ratings then find a job on you own, either towing banners or hopefully getting picked up as an instructor then just building time till you can go to the airlines.  Pretty cheesy way to live.  Currently I am studing the RJ manual that is provided by continental, and given by continental trained people.  

Now luckily for me its all free.  Lovely little program from the state of Texas called the hazlewood act.  Texas veterans get free school. So 40-50k of training free.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Golfer
If you want to know more do a google search for "410 it dude" "Jefferson City" and "Pinnacle" and you'll see what I mean.

!!!

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/CVR_Factual.pdf

That's ****ed up!  

Why did they lose both engines?  Above ceiling?  What does "410 it" mean?

[Chairboy]

41,000 feet, the ceiling of the commuter jet.  I haven't visited the link, but by the context, I'm guessing it has to do with the flameout on the taxi flight.

[Dnil]

yep its the one of the guys taking it to max height.  More of an airline policy/pilot issue then flight school issue.  They make a statment in there about saving fuel and I wonder if pinnacle was giving bonuses on being below their fuel profile.

[Octavius]

My tuition is battled in the form of cash brought in from fueling the past few months.  In fact, today was my last day on the tarmac.  Not sure about Pinnacle appreciating additional arrival fuel, but I've always appreciated the occasional FOB.

As for the recording in that PDF, were the two pilots killed?  When did this happen?

[Golfer]

It happened toward the end of last yeard, October I believe without visiting my friend Google.

410 refers to Flight Level Four-One-Zero meaning 41,000 feet.  That is the maximum altitude of the CRJ, of which I'm sure you're familiar as a fellow "retired" line guy  The CRJ can only make 410 when it's lightly loaded, it's ISA or colder, the moon is full and the stars are aligned properly.  The accident was on a ferry flight from A to B when the pilots, the only two on board, took the airplane up to FL410.

I've got a few friends at Pinnacle, one of whom wrote a LOR for me when I went down for an interview.  The captains they had during the interview process were all real great to talk to and seemed to know their stuff.  The friend who wrote a letter for me is nearing his captain upgrade and has met a few knuckleheads there.  Most of these guys have come from the Gulfstream Academy and if I'm not mistaken the FO on this flight was as well.  Regardless, the captain being as experienced as he was to be Captain (Pinnacle required 3500TT, 1500 turbine and an exemption to that if you had 500hours in Pinnacle jets IIRC...I can't be certain I didn't take notes during the powerpoint) shouldn't have been there.

I've read the transcripts a few times and the fuel flow they're referring to isn't them trying to save money (on the line I'm told that some of the pilots are slowing down because the block times scheduled are out of whack) its them noticing the effect of the altitude on fuel flow.  The higher you go in a jet the less fuel you burn because the air is less dense and to keep the ratio of fuel:air ideal you require less fuel in terms of pounds of fuel per pound of air while keeping the same volume flowing through the engine.  This works for any airplane (with an exception in some cases in some turbocharged models just as a disclamer) and is a reason that jets don't go cruising around at 12,000 ft.  They mention that they've seen the fuel flow at 4000lbs/hr (about 600 gallons/hr) and up there they were burning about 2000lbs/hr (roughly 300 gallons/hr).  The problem you encounter with high altitude flying is your indicated airspeed decreases and if the air isn't "thick" or dense enough to hold up the jet...it'll stall.  That's what happened here.  They allowed the airplane to stall...even after commenting how nose high the airplane was.

This incident wouldn't have happened with passengers on board because they would have never made it to FL410 in the first place.  The pilots both died in the crash.  They started from 8 miles high, put all their eggs in the 'we can restart' basket and didn't make a runway.  They averaged a 2000ft/min rate of decent.  That's from the first master warning horn signaling engine flame out at 21:54:38 to the crash at 22:15:06.  Thats 41,000 feet in 20:28.  Not having flown one and asking around, you've got a short window and strict paramaters when the engines will relight using the APU.  You need to meet temperature, airspeed, N1 and altitude requirements that start at only 13,000ft.  13000ft to the ground at 2000ft/min ROD is 00:06:30.

The good news is no passengers died.  The good news is that there is a lot to learn from this with regard to not properly training already inexperienced crewmembers.  Like Dnil mentioned...ExpressJet hires at 600hrs Total Time with 100hrs Multiengine as their published minimums.  Pinnacle is 1000/150 (i think?) with preference given to Gulfstream Academy grads...a practice no longer in place following several violations of P-56 (the white house's airspace) on departure from Regan National in DC and several pilots asking for 300kts at 6,000 feet (Speed limit over the USA for civil aircraft is 250kts below 10,000 feet without ATC approval...which you don't really get unless you've got a good reason.  Shedding ice in a Heavy airliner for example is a good reason)


Dnil like I said...it's not the student's fault.  It's the system at the moment and it's going to get someone else killed.  What quality of experience do you expect to have a 600hr "fast-track" wonder to have?  I can cite ATP as an example since I went there.  It's a training bubble.  The kids come in with their private and are taken through the "ATP way" and get only the bare minimum qualifications they require to become bare minimum CFIs.  They then (if lucky) CFI for ATP until they have 500 hours.  Before reaching 500hrs...if they attend the ATP Regional Jet Standards course for a discounted price of only $1,000 (what's that when they already have a $50,000+ loan) they are permitted to interview at ExpressJet at 500 hrs.  When I was there in February, the ATP instructors said they've got a 100% interview/hire rate.  The cool thing is...I had more actual instrument time than the entire instructor staff combined (and I was a 750hr wonder at the time!) and during the flights they'd ask me dumbfounded why I wasn't heading to CoEx and 'bothering' with getting my CFIs.

During my time there I was also complimented on my ability to consitantly and smoothly land a seminole, my voice on the radio, situational awareness and common sense approach to talking through maneuvers.  [Sarcasm mode on] It's reassuring when I fork over several thousand dollars for a program that the instructors are asking me for tips on basic airmanship.

It's also great when they proclaim that they never had to 'stoop' to work the flight line, when that was easily the most fun and educational job I've ever had.  None had seen an airplane with it's cowling off, none could describe what a vaccuum pump looked like and none had any idea where the propeller accumulators were located.

There are some good people at the regionals, but there are enough bad, dorky or foolish ones that I think I'll keep doing what I'm doing and keep networking my way into a corporate job.

Best of luck to you and do all you can to learn everything you can because you're not getting the whole scoop from DCA.  Email is always open as well.  Again...good luck.