Rotary PPL

[Dnil]

again doesnt matter where you are trained.  The interview process for these airlines is supposed to take care of it.  If the hopeful applicants cant pass the pre hire flights and tests then they wont get hired.  This isnt ATPs fault or any of the other academys.  Its the airlines that are hiring these "knuckleheads".  Its not like they get the magic hours and are instantly placed.  All they guarantee is an interview, thats it.  Its up to the airlines to hire them after they have flown/talked to them.  As you know there are plenty of knuckleheads all throughout aviation.

Personally I have no interest in flying airlines.  I did scheduling for new eagle pilot training and have several relatives/friends who fly with various carriers.  The lifestyle looks to be zero fun for me.  I just want to pay the bills and live close to my kids.


EDIT:  Golfer do you have any interest in airline flying?  I know quite a bit about DCA and the end Regional airline program doesnt sound appealing to me, even though it would be free.  It is fun learning all about the RJ tho.

[cpxxx]

In Europe you can have 300 hour pilots sitting in the right seat of Boeings and Airbus' having paid for their own type rating and earning only flight pay for six months.  Luckily they are usually matched with experienced Captains.
One day it will all end in tears.

I read about the 410 incident. I was under the impression that they aimed for FL410 on the ferry flight because being at that flight level had some kind of cachet. It was a joyride that went wrong once the engines flamed out and couldn't be restarted.  

What always annoys me about flying is that all the best flying jobs pay lousy and the most boring pay the best. Everyone aspires to be an airline pilot because it's the only way to pay the bills. A guy I flew with today gave up his job as an Engineering manager to instruct, which he loves but he has to buy and sell cars to make ends meet.  Another guy I met quit flying A330's across the Atlantic to become an instructor. He says he works longer hours but gets to sleep in his own bed every night. He was offered the chance to go back. He said he would but only if he could be rostered to fly once a year!

The one and only regional here does pay quite well. But of course you pay for your own type rating when they accept you.  From what I've heard it's a good outfit to work for too.

[Golfer]

No interest here in airline flying.  I actually talked about that to my current 'employer' who is the owner of a company that I fly their company Mooney for.  We were in a 172 today just flying around in circles enjoying the first direct crosswind here that I can remember.  6-8kts gusts to maybe 12 and it was a lot of fun for me...it must be my sunny disposition

Whether it's been aerobatics, warbirds, high performance cutting edge singles (Cirrus and Lancair) or just droning around in a 172...I got into aviation because I enjoy it and it's pure fun.  Regardless of what I'm flying I'm happy...but I'm also a professional.  I bill for ground instruction, I bill by the clock and not the hoobs and I charge a reasonable daily rate for contract pilot services in addition to expenses.  I make more now than I could in a few years at an airline, have more and better leads in the corporate and charter side of the world and am having a lot more fun than I could at an airline.

I finally meet insurance minimums for a company in which I would start in Citation IIs and V-Ultras and a friend of mine just took a resume in for me along with a sparkling review!  He flies a Citation X and has been with the company for over 10 years and he sold me on the job once I convinced him I wasn't airline bound.

Pay for that job (my first turbine employment) as a First Officer is over $10,000/yr more than a regional pilots first year pay and will increase nicely over time.  One nice thing is I'll earn a type in the V-Ultra with II differences (or vise versa) right off the bat rather than just being a gear thrower.  An expense account, stowing away my golf clubs (can't jumpseat with my golf bag!) and frequent visits to the Bahamas and Palm Beach where I used to live and left a few friends.

Still...I've talked about corporate flying and how great I think flying a G-IV or G-V would be and had a CRJ gear thrower ask me why I didn't want to join an airline.  What I disagree with is the 'preferred' hiring and it is preferred hiring because Chautauqua for one example I know has seats reserved for Delta Connection Academy graduates in both the ERJ-145s and ERJ-170s.  That's buying a job and it's the people in charge of the 'fast track' schools that I hope have a special place reserved in hell get what's coming to them for shafting young impressionable pilots and convincing them that they need to part with their money, credit and quality of life just for the honor of flying a regional jet.



cpxxx...you're exactly right.  It was a joyride and the folks at Pinnacle didn't like it very much when I asked them what they ammended in their training schedule following the incident and what they were doing to prevent that from happening again.  2 captains saw it as a condescending question and one of the assistant chiefs and another captain were very forthcoming with the truth.  I knew from my buddy there (the one about to upgrade) that they added additional ground classes and simulator events (sessions) to the training syllabus following the accident.

That's the answer I got from these guys and the other guys in the class had jaw-dropped faces like I was stirring the pot.  I wasn't disappointed with turning down the class date.  I interviewed on a Tuesday and they called while I was in the airport waiting for my flight home to offer me a training class for the following Monday!  No options for a later date.  I told the woman I wouldn't leave my current job with less than 2 weeks notice and I wouldn't do that with them in the future.  After a few minutes of negotiating I was given a choice.  The following Monday or nothing.  I thanked her for her time and went back to my C.C. and Coke with the interview group in the airport bar.

I like to think things are improving at Pinnacle because they learned the hard way.  I hope the industry took it as a wakeup call but I don't know if it will take an accident with passengers on board for something to happen that will require airline pilots to be qualified with experience rather than just 'kwik-e-mart' flight school experience.

[Chairboy]

You've flown a Lancair?  I'm envious!  I've fallen in love with the Columbia 400, and the normally aspirated ones are hardly slouches either.

I'm planning on a flight to Bend, OR sometime soon so I can check out their planes in person.

[Dnil]

still an experienced captain onboard regionals though and the "kwik-e" types are passing the regional training.  If they werent skilled enough to fly the autopilot I dont see them getting hired.  At eagle we had B-1 pilots in the FO classes right along with the spamcan jockies.  Both making the exact same pay doing the exact same job.  The airllines are making the choices here.  Once the pilot pool is large enough again the hour minimums will rise I am sure.  But truthfully monitoring the autopilot on these planes aint exactly tough.

[cpxxx]

You have the right attitude Golfer. The A330 pilot I mentioned told me he had trouble convincing pilots to enjoy the aircraft they're flying right now not constantly looking forward to flying a 737 or whatever. I have to say I've drifted towards that opinion lately. I have never earned a red cent for flying but at this stage I don't really care as long as I can keep flying. Even if only as a voluntary flight instructor in a flying club. But the possibility of flying Citation II's has popped up lately. Which does look very attractive.  

I don't really care anymore if I don't get the magic seat in a jet.  I flew a 172 yesterday to a city 100 miles away to make an appointment. Landed on a very short strip (416 metres) with a direct crosswind. Went to the appointment and later met a friend in a pub. An hour and a half after sitting in the pub 100 miles away, I was home. An excellent day out. It really doesn't matter what you fly as long as you enjoy it. Even a supposedly boring Cessna 172.

It took me a while to get around to that kind of thinking. But flyin' is flyin' as they say.

[Golfer]

If you're going to be flying Citation II's or flight instructing...make sure you get paid!  I'm going to rip the pub comment out of context and say "only in ireland" can you find pilots who will fly to a pub (for a pint) and then fly back home

Crazy irish...uhh...dudes?  

I know I'm not up to snuff on irish customs...but over here we don't have 'voluntary' instructors on a business as usual type schedule.  Young Eagles, Make a wish and Angel Flight are examples of when volunteering is the norm and very much appreciated.  I spent about $30,000 for my ratings, over half out of pocket and the rest a student loan and by god I'm going to get paid for my time!



They're passing training alright Dnil...I'm not saying that the flight schools are the only problem.  It's all one big fuster-cluck and it's going to get somebody killed.  Anybody can fly the airplanes when everything's working fine...but its the kwik-e-mart dudes who don't have any experience from which to draw on that won't be able to make a Sioux City landing if something goes wrong.

Or in the case of 3701...they put the airplane into a configuration to snuff out the engines.  Can you make an argument that there was a flaw or severe lacking in experience, training and skill that allowed that to happen?  I think so.  What about Pinnacle pilots flying through P-56 or doing silly things like asking for 300kts below 10,000 ft?  There's a captain on board that aircraft too that should stop that from even being transmitted if all he's doing is babysitting the airplane and his FO.

[cpxxx]

LOL  Don't worry
Golfer, I won't work for nothing. The boss of the particular outfit I mention likes to tell a story about an instructor who came into his office one day and offered to work for free. He threw him out saying. ' Don't you ever denigrate your profession by working for nothing'. In reality he has subsidised many a pilot. Letting them train for their CFI's and then deducting the money from their pay afterwards. Often he never gets repaid.

When I talk about unpaid instruction I mean in a non commercial flying club. There are very few flight schools in the country. But a lot of flying clubs. It's a good way to build time for free or just fly for free. There is a major shortage of instructors in Ireland because of the ridiculous complexities caused by the JAA and the way the airlines recruit low time pilots straight out of expensive European or American (100K)  flight schools, who were in the past the source of instructors.

As for the pub:p  not even in Ireland do we drink that close to flying. I can assure you we only drank Cokes, diet Coke at that.  I was really referring to the relaxed athmosphere just before we flew back.

[Dnil]

you do understand the minimun hours you graduate with from DCA to qualify for the regional program?  Its 700 at the very minimum, most are 1000tt pilots.  


Did I read your page right, you charge by the clock hour and not hobbs time?  Like I have you scheduled for 2 hours but we fly only an hour and a half you charge the full 2 hours.  Was I reading that right?

EDIT:  found the background on the pilots.  Captain had 6k hours.  FO 539, with 300 being turbo prop.  Lots of turbo prop for that low of TT, seems odd.  Interesting read non the less

 http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/322805.pdf

[Golfer]

The FO was a Gulfstream Academy graduate.  Flew BE-1900s.  Paying for the 'right' and 'priviledge' is what I'm upset about.  

You did.  I make it clear to my students (more like clients since I don't fly with anyone off the street...they're all referred to me by other students) that if we're scheduled from 7am-10am for example, the clock starts at 7 and runs until the last handshake.  I usually show up 15-30 minutes early anyway depending on the lesson but if a 3 hour scheduled block only has 1.8 hrs flying I'm still supervising, instructing and managing the experience and I'm compensated for such.  I'm not a jerk though...if we're BSing about baseball or OSU football (GO BUCKS!!) I pay attention to that when I type up the bill at home.

A normal day might be I roll in at 6:45 and draw up a quick plan of action for the day and brief the student.  Student shows at 7:05 I've been on the clock for 5 minutes.  We sit down and go over the day's events.  Maneuvers, procedures and expectations for both he and I.  Do they have questions?  Out to the airplane and they preflight, I check the fuel and oil once myself just because it's silly not to.  We fly.  Come back and I tie down the airplane and return the aircraft clipboard.  Sit down, debrief, critique and I go over any notes I took during the flight and talk about what to expect for next time.  If we're wrapped up at 9:45 and are BSing till 10:15 about sports, women and cars then that's fine.  The final bill for me will show 2.8 hrs (2.75 rounded) for that person that day.  Make sense?

[Dnil]

it makes sense, I have just never been charged like that.  Its always been off the hobbs.

edit....and I agree with that crap about having to either pay for right seat time or fly for free stuff.  Its insane but what else can these guys do to build time.  Only so many low hour jobs to do.  Most are in a hurry to build the minimum for the airlines then bolt at the first chance.  I also believe the pilot contracts are crap to by paying the new pilots such horrid wages.  Still not many options for the new pilots.  Most dont have contacts and even more cant get insured.  Not an easy path.

[Golfer]

at my local flight school for instance (and I'm not a contract instructor with them) the CFI's there might have a 2 hour block with 30 minutes of ground and an hour of flying.  They only bill the hour of flying.  I ask why and they don't have a good answer.  They say because nobody else does.  They all know now that I do and a few have followed suit.  They're already making a whopping $18/hr (out of 28-32 billed) and they need all the help they can get.  I feel bad for them but I've been there too.  If I can find a way to network into a gig that has me flying in the nicest airplanes at a fair wage...they can too.

If you ask me...18-19-20 year olds shouldn't even be flying airliners.  I'm only 22 and after every few months I sit back and look at where I am now (Meet FAR135 IFR PIC reqs.) and reflect on where I was and I'm amazed at what I've learned.  The fast-food mentality of the country has bled into all these fast track schools and the idea of paying your dues is lost.  Now instead of actually working their way into an airline position they just need to throw money at it and it's handed to them if they meet the minimum standards.

I don't like the idea of seeing a FO wearing a clip-on tie because they don't know how to tie one, wearing brown shoes with black pants and carrying with them a JanSport bookbag as a flight bag.  I've seen all these things just in the last 8-12 months as regional carriers are taking over more mainline routes.  A lot of things need to change in pilot training, standards and also above all...attitude.  I know some very great airline pilots who are wonderful friends and good people to talk to.  I know many more that outnumber the good ones who have poor negative attitudes.

Here's hoping

By the way...shoot me an email I was wondering which school you went to and what you were looking at far as your next step.