Just like FW190D?.....

[straffo]

Originally posted by Widewing
Doras are strictly one trick birds. Cherrypick and run like hell.. Burn off E and die. I prefer the F4U-4 or P-51B which can fight their way out of trouble.

I'm  Dorka dweeb and I've the exact same opinion of the F4 and P51 drivers.

Don't you think it's more a pilot caracteristic than a plane caracteristic ?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by straffo
I'm  Dorka dweeb and I've the exact same opinion of the F4 and P51 drivers.

Don't you think it's more a pilot caracteristic than a plane caracteristic ?

To some degree it is a function of the pilot. However, the Dora is absolutely unsuited to furballing, thereby limiting tactics to slashing attacks followed by a rapid climb to regain position. An equally fast, but more agile fighter can reduce the Dora pilot's options to simply fleeing.

My regards,

Widewing

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Widewing



My favorite Dora killer is the P-51B. It suffers from relatively weak guns (four .50 cal mgs), but is far more agile than the Dora, and is faster and climbs better from 12,000 feet on up. It's a near perfect ride for hunting strat porkers.


My regards,

Widewing

I gained new respect for the P51B one afternoon. I was in a Tempest at about 18k and here comes two P51B's co-alt. There was nothing I could do, they were just as fast as me, out-turned me and with two of them could keep me cornered. I ended up trying to  split S away but they had no problem keeping up and following my evasives and ended up running me down on the deck.

If you can tolerate the pee-shooters the P51B is a great plane at all altitudes really, faster and more manueverable than almost anything below 20k.

to Vati and Bullseye

Zazen

[straffo]

Originally posted by Widewing
To some degree it is a function of the pilot. However, the Dora is absolutely unsuited to furballing, thereby limiting tactics to slashing attacks followed by a rapid climb to regain position. An equally fast, but more agile fighter can reduce the Dora pilot's options to simply fleeing.

My regards,

Widewing

Certainly
 I've the bad habit to enter a furball with a D9 or a typhoon and Furball till I feel I'm out of option except regaining E as fast as I can
Slashing attack are not compatible with my poor gunnery

[Whisky58]

Originally posted by straffo Slashing attack are not compatible with my poor gunnery [/B]

My furballing ability is, at best, piss-poor (ok, ok, I'm working on it - Spits only this tod) but I've been blessed with a good eye & steady trigger hand. IMO the Dora is a cracking slashing beast, probably the best in AH. Guns are arranged close to centre line & ability to roll quick means rapid fine tuning of gun solution at speed is easy.
I'd thus have to disagree with Widewings assertion that rapid rate of roll is defensive manoeuvre only.

Regards

[Crumpp]

An equally fast, but more agile fighter can reduce the Dora pilot's options to simply fleeing.

Roll rate is agility in a fighter.

This is true statement for Aces High but I don't think it reflects the actual ability of the design.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Roll rate is agility in a fighter.

This is true statement for Aces High but I don't think it reflects the actual ability of the design.

All the best,

Crumpp

I have a question that you may be able to answer. There's a fellow on another BBS who insists that he has data showing the Ta 152H-1 was capable of 500+ mph. To date, despite my requests, he has posted nothing in support of this assertion. I'm convinced he's lying like a cheap rug. To attain 500 mph the 152 would require at least 3,000 hp, perhaps even more. Have you ever heard this particular claim before? It seems to me that if it were true, more than one character would know about it.

My regards,

Widewing

[Wilbus]

Widewing that accusation would be quite false (level flight only of course).

The Ta152 was capable of 472mph at 41k acording to all data I've seen, charts etc. I've never heard anything about it passing 500mph or being able to pass 500mph in level flight. The only piston engined plane to do this during ww2 afaik was a P47 M prototype.

Not sure it would need 3000hp or more but it is possible, maybe it could do it on less. I'm guessing it would be able to do it on less. The engine is uses now (Jumo 213 E) gives a good 1730hp at take off and about 1260 at 35k. This would be without MW50 and GM1 though.

[Wilbus]

How can ANYONE compare a Dora with a Ki84? The difference between flying and fighting styles can not be greater.

Tiffie or an F4u would be the planes that resembles the Dora most, while both behave better or much better at high speeds (part from tiffie roll rate) the fighting is much the same. Both outturn the Dora though, specially the F4u at very low speeds and flaps out.  

If you've gotten tired of the Dora I suggest a 190 A8 instead.

[HoHun]

Hi Widewing,

>There's a fellow on another BBS who insists that he has data showing the Ta 152H-1 was capable of 500+ mph.

I have never heard of that. If he actually has data, I'd like to see it, too :-)

>To attain 500 mph the 152 would require at least 3,000 hp, perhaps even more.

Of course, the power requirement would be highly altitude-dependend. Using Wilbus' figure of 472 mph @ 41000 ft as standard top speed, it's achieved on just 1080 hp (plus a considerable amount of exhaust thrust).

To get to 500 mph, or 106% of the original speed, you'd just have to produce 118% of the original power, or 1280 hp. Since the original power is achieved on 120 g/s GM-1 injection and the GM-1 system will yield a maximum of 180 g/s, this power increase is well in reach for the Jumo 213E.

However, 180 g/s is only cleared for 42650 ft and above, and I believe you might end up melting important parts of your engines if you engage it below that while aiming for the 500 mph mark :-)

There are possible explanations how a Ta 152H could have been flown at 500 mph - experimental engine, prototype with low fuel load and without combat equipment, or - maybe the highest probability guess - an airspeed reading not corrected for compressiblity error :-)

(The compressibilty error at the speed and altitude Wilbus mentioned would read about 50 mph too high in a conventional airspeed indicator. I don't know if the Ta 152 maybe had the late-war "jet fighter" type airspeed indicator which had a IAS gauge for low speeds and a TAS gauge for higher speeds, but I suspect the TAS gauge might not have compensated for compressiblity either.)

I agree that such a record flight would probably have been mentioned in the extensive literature on the type, and in the absence of data I'd consider the 500 mph claim as plain wishful thinking :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Wilbus]

Nice numbers HoHun.

It is correct that the Jumo 213 E wasn't flown using the best possible GM1 boost. Possibly (probarly) for the Reasons HoHun mentioned.

The 500mph may very well have been achievable in the Ta under the right conditions with a pilot willing to push the engine and with an engine that had been well taken care of and well constructed.

The highest altitude of any Ta152 ever reached was 44799 feet. It was a test flight conducted in order to see how high the plane could climb. The test was aborted more due to the fact that the pilot could not continue (The pressurised cockpit didn't work and the pilots limbs stopped working and he was starting to get a tunnel vision well before this altitude was reached. Infact, he had to start flying with his left arm because his right arm stopped responding).
On the way down the pilot conducted several more speed tests but nowhere does he or any official records state that he passed 500mph (so even if the speed meter did show the wrong speed it didn't show more than 500).

The pilots name was Friedrich Schnier.
If you really want the full story told by him (not all that long) I can type it down. Let me know, I won't do it unless anyone wants to...

Oh btw, go tell they guy who says it reached 500mph level flight that he is full of BS or tell him to cough up the reports. I would love to see them and I would love to know if it indeed did reach 500mph. Till then he is full of BS.




I don't think the Ta152 ever flew at 41k during operational sorties nor even anywhere near it and this again makes it quite unlikely that the plane passed 500mph in level flight.

[frank3]

It would've been rather useless for the Ta-152 to fly there.
At those high altitudes, there probably are no enemies.

The Ta-152 isn't a good diver, it's wings will come of fairly rapidly in a steep dive, so Im sure their pilots didn't like to get in a dive, thus not flying at high alts (above 35k)

[Wilbus]

Actually Frank the Ta152 wings will stay on in any dive in AH and I expect they would stay on at 600mph in R/L aswell just like the normal 190's.

What the wings can't take as good due to their length is high G's.

[HoHun]

Hi Wilbus,

>It is correct that the Jumo 213 E wasn't flown using the best possible GM1 boost. Possibly (probarly) for the Reasons HoHun mentioned.

Hm, actually it was the best possible, just not the largest possible :-)

GM-1 is an oxydizer, and the power you gain is directly proportional to the rate at which you pour in GM-1. While the engine has to work hard to pump the usual oxydizer - ambient air - into the engine, GM-1 can be poured in at any rate without taking any power off the engine at all.

However, since GM-1 contains proportionally more oxygen than air, there's proportinally less inert mass available to carry off heat, so the engine will run hot - if you pour in too much GM-1, self-destructively hot.

Since GM-1 is an oxydizer, it can be compared to rocket fuel. Its effect is very powerful, but it's used up at a terrible rate.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Wilbus]

HoHun the GM1 system in the Ta152 (or rather for the Jumo 213 E1 equiped in the Ta152) was approved for 60, 100 and 150 g/sec.
It gave an increase of up to 410hp above the maximum boost altitude at an average consupmtion of 100 g/sec and lasted for 17 minutes. The Gm1 was stored in a 85 liter tank in the aft fuselage.
So 120 g/sec would actually not be the best possible for the Ta152.

While 180 would probarly be overly optimistic the engine ta152 was aproved for 150 g/s.