Author Topic: This is fascinating---timeline  (Read 1076 times)

Offline Westy

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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2005, 07:09:14 PM »
For sure!   Voluntary evacuation declared on Saturday.... mandatory evacuation by Sunday.  By Sat it was too late to relocate several hundred buses and you can be sure that the bus drivers needed were amongst those in the freeway traffic getting out of town asap.

It's a short straw.  But this "the buses could have saved N.O!" theory seems to be the only one the "Swiftbus Veterans for Truth" can grab onto.

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2005, 07:50:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
For sure!   Voluntary evacuation declared on Saturday.... mandatory evacuation by Sunday.  By Sat it was too late to relocate several hundred buses and you can be sure that the bus drivers needed were amongst those in the freeway traffic getting out of town asap.

It's a short straw.  But this "the buses could have saved N.O!" theory seems to be the only one the "Swiftbus Veterans for Truth" can grab onto.


So, the whole CITY of N.O. cant be expected to move a few hundred buses maybe 5 miles to safety, but the U.S. govt was supposed to have manpower onhand to evacuate 200,000 peeps within 48 hours of the flood?

(btw, school buses now-a-days have automatic transmissions, and judging by the quality of the folks who drive my kid to school, it doesnt take much talent)
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2005, 08:04:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
For sure!   Voluntary evacuation declared on Saturday.... mandatory evacuation by Sunday.  By Sat it was too late to relocate several hundred buses and you can be sure that the bus drivers needed were amongst those in the freeway traffic getting out of town asap.

It's a short straw.  But this "the buses could have saved N.O!" theory seems to be the only one the "Swiftbus Veterans for Truth" can grab onto.


well I guess having a worth while evacuation plan to BEGIN WITH could have prevented all of this.  All these liberals are blaiming the federal govt when it's the locals responsibility to evacuate and care for the welfare of the city.  You have the Mayor Screaming "were's my buses" when they are under water.

I find it hard to beleive he couldn't have found a handfull of people to move them to safety.

Offline rpm

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« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2005, 08:26:24 PM »
Every politician involved dropped the ball on this one. Nobody is innocent. Bush has his share of the blame, as well as Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin. It just shows the incompetence of everyone involved, unfortunately it is costing people their life.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2005, 08:33:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
So let me see if I understand you. On the Sat or Sun before the hurricane hit as the mayor you would have simply called for volunteers and handed the keys over to the first 500+ strangers that showed up? And if they said they never drove one before you would have shrugged it off and said "Have fun, knock yourself out! Why it's just like a go-cart, only bigger. Anyone can do it!

lol.  sure thing.


No.

Let's look at this from the planning point of view.

Houston Chronicle

Quote
...The city of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan suggested people develop their own way to get out. "The potential exists that New Orleans could be without sufficient supplies to meet the needs of persons with special considerations, and there is significant risk being taken by those individuals who decide to remain in these refuges of last resort," it says....

.....Florida, by contrast, for two decades has required counties to establish and maintain permanent databases of "special needs citizens," and arrange rides for people with no transportation. The state also has shelters established for myriad medical conditions.

Florida emergency officials agree that last-minute planning simply doesn't work.

"Unless you planned in advance, it would be a catastrophe," said Guy Daines, a retired Florida emergency manager who is considered an expert in specialized evacuations.



So it's obvious that the only plan N. O. had for people without transportation and special needs was actually really not a plan. It was a forlorn hope.

Now, having gotten himself into a jam because HIS administration had no plan to get these people out, what did he do?

http://www.indybay.org/archives/archive_by_id.php?id=3561&category_id=16

Quote
On Saturday 8/27, the National Hurricane Center in Miami extended a Hurricane Watch for Louisiana and President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana. Mandatory evacuation orders were issued for some of Louisiana's low-lying areas and Katrina was expected to increase to become a Category 4 hurricane; "This is a very, very dangerous hurricane," said NHC Director Max Mayfield on CNN Saturday. At 5pm, Mayor Ray Nagin called for a voluntary evacuation of the city but Greyhound & Amtrak stopped service in New Orleans late Saturday Night.

By Sunday 8/28, news reports called Katrina the most powerful hurricane ever to menace the United States and said it was expected to slam into the nation's most storm-vulnerable city, New Orleans. "Some 25 feet of standing water is expected in many parts of the city -- almost twice the height of the average home -- and computer models suggest that more than 80 percent of buildings would be badly damaged or destroyed" On Sunday, Mayor Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation order


So even though it looked like a major hurricane was headed to N.O., a town without a real evacuation plan, Nagin calls for a "voluntary" evacuation on Saturday.

Chronicle:

Quote
...Saturday evening, Hurricane Katrina had intensified to Category 4, with the possibility that it could strike land as a killer Category 5 storm.

About 8 p.m., Mayor Nagin fielded an unusual personal call at home from Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, who wanted to be sure Nagin knew what was coming.

Still, Nagin waited to issue a mandatory evacuation, apparently because of legal complications, said Frazier. She said the city attorney was unavailable for an interview to explain.



The Director of the NHS calls Nagin on Saturday apparently because by the lack of action on the part of Nagin, the Director obviously feels Nagin doesn't "get it".

FINALLY, on Sunday at 10AM, Nagin orders mandatory evacuation, 14 hours after the Director tried to warn him personally.


On Friday Nagin could have thought about his evacuation plan and the role the buses would have to play. He could then have asked his usual drivers to volunteer. But of course he didn't. He didn't do ANYTHING to prepare on Friday really.

On Saturday he orders "voluntary" evac which a lot of folks ignored. He could have had his staff trying to round up volunteer drivers then too.

Finally, on Sunday, he orders mandatory evacuation but still HAS NO PLAN for moving those without transportation or those with special needs. Could he have designated Police officers or about any city employees available to drive the buses? I think those folks could probably handle a bus; hell, a kid did.

They didn't have to drive them all the way to Houston, either. They just needed to get them OUT of N.O. They could have taken them 30 miles up the road towards Baton Rouge and started dropping them in any shelter available in the towns along the way.

But, obviously there was NO PLAN and there was no attempt to IMPROVISE a plan when it became obvious that there was NO PLAN.

Quote
The consequences came to bear in the images hours and days later: Elderly people dying outside shelters and hospitals that were losing power and, finally, their patients. Now, hurricane evacuation experts around the country are asking why New Orleans failed to prepare for the flood scenario from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane.

"Everybody knew about it. There's no excuse for not having a plan," said Jay Baker, a Florida State University associate professor who is an expert in hurricane evacuations and is familiar with New Orleans hurricane studies.


So, clearly, Mayor Nagin FAILED his constituents and the City of New Orleans. Failed MISERABLY.

There's plenty of blame to go around; the Governor and the Federal agencies didn't score very well on this test either.

But let's start with the basics:

Nagin and his administration were responsible for having an evac plan for N.O.  Clearly, they did not have a workable plan. Further, despite numerous warnings, Nagin was extremely slow to act. That is a leadership function and he failed to lead in this situation. They also failed to improvise when it became obvious they had screwed up. Essentially, he sat up in Baton Rouge like a deer in the headlights.

So yeah, the Feds were slow. The Governor exhibited the inability to make timely decisions. But the first link in the "accident chain" was Nagin. No plan, no decisions, no improvisation, no leadership.

So, would I have turned the keys over to any bozo willing to take a crack at getting those folks out of town? Damn straight I would. Especially when I first got word the levee had broken. That was clearly time to get those folks out in any way possible.

I salute that kid that stole the bus. Damn shame there weren't 500 more like him.
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2005, 10:12:50 PM »
Nagin sure blew it.. no doubt.

Be careful you don't criticize Bush though.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2005, 10:20:59 PM »
They all blew it. Nagin, Blanco, Brown, Chertoff and Bush.

Be careful not to admit that though.
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2005, 10:21:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Nagin sure blew it.. no doubt.

Be careful you don't criticize Bush though.


EDIT:

who are you liberals going to blame when there's no more Bush.  The democrats ran this state and city for how long and what do they end up with.  More poverty and no plan for disaster.  This is proof that "help me federal govt blame others for your problems" liberalism does not work.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 10:23:34 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2005, 10:45:25 PM »
Oh... one other thing not to admit.

Please don't admit that if Nagin had competently executed the "City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan annex I: Hurricanes", the loss of life in N.O. would have been far, far less than what it is going to turn out to be.

Don't admit that Nagin's failure to do so is the primary reason so many people lost their lives.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2005, 10:46:08 PM »
The Federal Government has no authority to order or to force an evacuation. The Federal Government simply re-acts after the fact. It's the local and state governments responsibility take of their residents.

They failed miserably. Had the New Orleans Mayor and  Louisiana Governor had a plan to begin with (something more the 'go to the Superdome') then we wouldn't see any of them crying about the Federal Government's 'slow response'.

The Federal Government's response to these types of disasters are 'never fast enough' but they are what they are. The failures in Louisiana created an almost unmanageable situation.

The failure on the local level is 'criminal' imho. Their failures are what made the New Orleans and Louisiana disaster what it is. How could they not know the elderly and infirm were being left to die in nursing homes?

In another thread MT stated that 'race' was the reason behind the Feds 'slow response'. Was 'race' the reason for the failures on the local level?

Offline rpm

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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2005, 10:49:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Who are you liberals going to blame when there's no more Bush?
ANY idiot that runs their office the way this one is.
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Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2005, 11:15:17 PM »
The infallible blaming the fallible for their fallibility.

Offline Stringer

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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2005, 12:14:21 AM »
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Originally posted by rpm
ANY idiot that runs their office the way this one is.


Or any idiot political party that can't beat this idiot.....TWICE!!

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2005, 12:17:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
ANY idiot that runs their office the way this one is.


SO it's Bush's fault that a Democrat Mayor didn't have a good enough evacuation plan?

It's Bush's fault that this city wich is run by democrats has an above average poverty status?

Quote

The failure on the local level is 'criminal' imho. Their failures are what made the New Orleans and Louisiana disaster what it is. How could they not know the elderly and infirm were being left to die in nursing homes?


yea try to charge the mayor with something.  You hear race card being played now......

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2005, 12:29:39 AM »
I'm wondering who appointed a equine anus (he's head of the arabian assoc?) as director of fema.. in fact in every critical fema position sits some zero qualification bush machine appointee.

Toad really nailed it good.. and yup, there's plenty of blame to share... and plenty more bodies to dig up.

Literally as well as figuratively.

Since this administration usually rewards incompetence with a medal, I'm wondering if there's gonna be a bronze shortage followed by a precious metals price hike.
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