Author Topic: Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications  (Read 850 times)

Offline Yeager

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« on: September 08, 2005, 02:55:48 PM »
NEW YORK -- Neither the German pilot nor the Cypriot co-pilot of an airliner that crashed Aug. 14 near Athens could speak the same language fluently, and each had difficulty understanding the other's English, the International Herald Tribune reported in an article published in Wednesday editions of the New York Times.

The Herald Tribune, citing several people connected with the investigation into the crash, said the crew members of the Cypriot airliner became confused by a series of alarms as the plane climbed, failing to recognize that the cabin wasn't pressurizing until they grew mentally disoriented because of lack of oxygen and lost consciousness.

A total of 121 people were killed in the crash after the plane climbed and flew on autopilot, circling near Athens until one engine stopped running because of a lack of fuel. The sudden imbalance of power, with only one engine operating, caused the autopilot to disengage and the plane to begin to fall, according to the newspaper report.

Investigators pieced together the story of the crash from many sources, the Herald Tribune said. Among other things, the investigators determined that the pilot wasn't in his seat because he was up trying to solve a problem that turned out to be one of the lesser threats facing the plane, the newspaper reported.

The plane that crashed, a Boeing 737-300, underwent maintenance the night before. The maintenance crew apparently left a pressurization controller rotary knob out of place, according to the officials connected to the investigation, and the crew didn't catch the mistake during preflight checks the next day. This meant that the plane couldn't pressurize properly, the Herald Tribune said.

At 10,000 feet, an alarm went off to warn the crew that the plane wouldn't pressurize. Crew members mistakenly thought that the alarm horn was a warning to tell them that their controls weren't set properly for takeoff, the officials told the Herald Tribune.

The climb continued on autopilot. At 14,000 feet, oxygen masks deployed as designed, and a master caution light illuminated in the cockpit. Another alarm sounded at about the same time on an unrelated matter, warning that there was insufficient cooling air in the compartment housing avionics equipment, the newspaper said.

The radio tapes showed that this created tremendous confusion in the cockpit. Normally an aircraft cabin is held at 8,000 feet pressure, so the crew at over 14,000 feet would already be experiencing some disorientation because of a lack of oxygen, the newspaper reported.

During this time, the captain and co-pilot discovered that they had no common language and that their English wasn't good enough for the complicated technical conversation required to fix the problem, according to the report.

The crew members called the maintenance base in Cyprus and were told that the circuit breaker to turn off the loud new alarm was in a cabinet behind the captain. The captain got up from his seat to look for the circuit breaker, apparently ignoring the confused co-pilot.

As the plane continued to climb on autopilot, the air grew so thin that the crew became seriously impaired. The captain lost consciousness first on the floor of the cockpit, followed by the co-pilot, who remained in his seat, according to the officials who spoke to the Herald Tribune.

The autopilot did as it was programmed to do, flying the plane at 34,000 feet to Athens and entering a holding pattern. It remained in a long circling pattern, shadowed by Greek military jets, until fuel ran low and one engine quit, according to the report.
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Offline Wolfala

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2005, 04:33:30 PM »
Thank god for the FAA's certification requirements of "Can you speak and read english fluently" Doesn't ICAO have a crew requirement of the same language?


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Offline GtoRA2

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2005, 04:46:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfala
Thank god for the FAA's certification requirements of "Can you speak and read english fluently" Doesn't ICAO have a crew requirement of the same language?



That will get PCed one day too.



Sad sad stuff above.

Offline Toad

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2005, 04:55:26 PM »
The probably left it in Manual with the outflow valve open and it failed to pressurize.

That's why there's a checklist.
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Offline Wolfala

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2005, 05:00:23 PM »
I've been flying for most of my life - but I don't know of a single instance of a crew certified in the US that couldn't communicate with each other to troubleshoot atleast in the same language, with the exception of the FO occasionally being a mongoloid. Its unacceptable and a completely preventable accident. Thats why the PTS standards on every certification has a checkoff "USE OF CHECKLISTS"


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Offline Toad

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 05:01:56 PM »
It's pretty obvious that the company was not too awfully concerned about who they hired to fly their aircraft, not too concerned about a serious Line Check program, a serious Flight Safety program.........
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Offline Fishu

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 05:07:32 PM »
I'm amazed they were actually allowed to fly with this kind of crew.
Already for years attention has been on the cockpit teamwork...
They sure did alot of things wrong, which shouldn't have happened even with one pilot knowing the stantard procedures.
Just too odd they just let the autopilot climb with all the alarms going off.

Bad T/O config alert at 10,000ft.. yeah.. right.
Couldn't they have figured something easier than that?

I wonder what their salary was, because even on the invidual level their actions, under the current light, seemed to be far from professional.
Same goes for the maintenance...

Offline Wolfala

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 05:09:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
I'm amazed they were actually allowed to fly with this kind of crew.
Already for years attention has been on the cockpit teamwork...
They sure did alot of things wrong, which shouldn't have happened even with one pilot knowing the stantard procedures.
Just too odd they just let the autopilot climb with all the alarms going off.

Bad T/O config alert at 10,000ft.. yeah.. right.
Couldn't they have figured something easier than that?

I wonder what their salary was, because even on the invidual level their actions, under the current light, seemed to be far from professional.
Same goes for the maintenance...



I get the T/O config warning before I even get 80 % of N1 - exactly the point.


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Offline Dinger

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2005, 05:16:04 PM »
First, folks, to put this in perspective:
This is a small island. Everybody knows each other. There's also a culture in this island where petty personal intrigues lead people to "cut off the nose to spite the face". Since the helios crash, there has been 4 weeks of nothing but news -- mostly manufactured -- on Helios. Hell, even whining about the "Cyprus Problem" has taken a backseat, and that means it's serious. Politicians here and in Greece are using the crash for their own advantage: the previous administration set up the DCA (=Cyprus FAA); the current administration runs it. Many prominent politicians under the previous administration own significant shares in Libra/Helios. It's all shady, at this point, and don't believe what you read.

about that article: the "young, inexperienced F/O was 41 years old with something like 7000 flight hours. I find it _very_ hard to believe that any educated cypriot would not speak english fluently -- this is not Greece (I say that because I often have to switch to french or italian when talking to educated Greeks). The Captain, on the other hand, apparently was flying for East German carriers until 1990.


Toad's scenario sounds plausible. Then it gets missed on the checklist, then the horn sounds at 10,000 feet, and the crew thinks they've got something malfunctioning somewhere (since the cabin alt alarm is the same horn as the takeoff configuration horn; they think they've got a spurious horn, and try to sort it -- the same thing's happened a few times on other 737s). At 14k, the electronics bay overheats.
Now, the rest of it -- well, it depends on the timing. The ATC tapes may show them being increasingly confused as hypoxia set in, but I'd find it hard dto believe they told ATC "we're having trouble understanding each other" before hypoxia.
It would certainly make sense though that both of them were trying to sort the horns, and nobody was flying the aircraft (=level off to solve the problem).

Offline Edbert

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 05:22:26 PM »
Rather than passing out while troubleshooting the lack of pressurization why not decend to 10,000 feet first then figure out the language problem?

14,000 feet is thin air but not enough to completely lose consciousness right?

Offline Toad

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 05:27:48 PM »
As a side note, it's 99% sure that the Electronics and Equipment overheat was because of the failure to pressurize.

The main outflow valve is in the lower aft fuselage but cabin air is also exhausted through the E&E bay to cool the equipment racks. So, no pressurization, no cabin air exhausted because there's no differential pressure.

Basically, this is all just "checklist discipline". They didn't run the Pre-Flight checklist correctly, an unbelievable failure of professionalism.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2005, 05:28:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
Rather than passing out while troubleshooting the lack of pressurization why not decend to 10,000 feet first then figure out the language problem?

 


Apparently they never realized they had failed to pressurize at all.
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Offline Edbert

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2005, 05:36:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Apparently they never realized they had failed to pressurize at all.

I would think that the oxygen masks falling out might have been a hint. Maybe the crew in the cockpit could not see that but I'd have expected a stewardess to have said something, assuming she spoke a language they could understand.

Sad to think how ways this could have been avaoidable.

Offline Toad

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2005, 05:46:42 PM »
Unless they opened the door it's unlikely they'd see the masks down. There's just a little peephole like they sell in hardware stores for your front door.

As for the F/A's calling, I'd expect that on a US line because the training is that one of the pilots will call on interphone as soon as possible to explain the problem. If this doesn't come in a reasonable amount of time. the F/A's are told to check on the cockpit. This is for any unusual situation, not just masks dropping. However, on some foreign carriers this may not be "procedure". In any event it doesn't look like standardized procedure was much of a concern at Helios.

Prevented? Yah, no cheese. How about the pilot not flying accomplishing the Pre-flight checklist then reading it to the pilot flying who visually verifies correct switch positions and setting before responding with the appropriate switch position.

It should have never happened at all. It should have been "fixed" prior to engine start.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Wolfala

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Cypriot 737 Crash- First indications
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2005, 05:59:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
I would think that the oxygen masks falling out might have been a hint. Maybe the crew in the cockpit could not see that but I'd have expected a stewardess to have said something, assuming she spoke a language they could understand.

Sad to think how ways this could have been avaoidable.



For those of us who have never been in an altitude chamber - they might need some education on the subject. I did the chamber while attending the University of Illinois - infact we drove down to Oaklahoma City to an USAF base just for that. It may sound stupid, but here's the thing: simple tasks, when you are hypoxic, aren't simple.

Here's what I did when I was above 20K off 02. They had those little blocks they give kids - ya know, the square peg in the round hole type. I was fitting stuff where it wasn't ever going to fit, and I remember being frustrated as ****. Other simple tasks, 2+2 = 1. U get the jist of it.

Anyways, I know atleast over here, above I think it is 40K, 1 crew member is required to be wearing O2 at all times. Now short of changing the reg to require O2 above 10K regardless of pressurization, the key is following procedure, getting a challenge response from the FO and CA - and NEVER relying on learned memory.

If you don't do the procedures...well...people die.


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$