Improved Dammage Modell (more parts)

[Wilbus]

I've requested improved Dammage modell before, usually in the way that a single hit would/could have an effect on plane performance. While this may be too much for online sims or even more peoples systems I'd like to discuss another idea, a little something "in between" the current DM in AH and "one hit effect".

As it is now it is, as I've also said before, "all or nothing".

Take 2 20's in the wing and nothing happens, the third might blow it off completely. So after 2x20's you may fly around as if nothing happens and the third kills you.
Same goes for ailerons, it's either all or nothing, take a 20 in an aileron and you lose it all together, take 3x50's and you might not lose it but the 4:th knocks it off.

As it is now the planes are split up into a quite low number of parts, 2 ailerons, 1 elevator split up into 2 parts. Rudder, vertical stab, horizontal stab, left/right outer wings, entire wings, 3 gears (not very important). Radiator, oil, engine, pilot, guns and flaps. (forget something?).

The idea I came to think of was to split up the plane into more parts. Take the wing example above.

After taking 2x20's in a wing you probarly wouldn't be flying as well as when the plane is unharmed.
So split up each part into more parts. Split up a wing into, let's say, 10 parts. Each capable of taking hits and effecting the planes performance in some kind of way.

Ailerons into 2 parts. Elevator into 4 parts (instead of the 2).

Radiator... well if it's punctured it's punctured. Same goes for oil I guess.

Think you all get the point. The hit modell is already there I think (or isn't it?) as we can see aproximatly where we take hits...

[MANDO]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Ailerons into 2 parts. Elevator into 4 parts (instead of the 2).
 

As well as rudder, flaps and dive flaps. But then you need to halve the quantity of damage required to damage all these subparts.

[Wilbus]

Rgr on rudder etc, everthying split into more parts.
Yes of course dammage would have to be reduced for smaller areas. Single hit should still be able to take of an intire aileron if the hit is good enough.

[lasersailor184]

I don't know about you, but if I've taken a lot of hits, I can't turn as well.  Parts will fly off if I'm turning hard.

[Kweassa]

Me, I'd like an 'internal model' and an 'external model'.

 Since we already receive engine/oil/rad damages, I guess there's an 'internal' damageable part in the game to some extent... but IMO it could use some more parts. For instance, in IL2/FB there are some more interesting levels of damage.. like the supercharger being busted, or the throttle control system stuck.. the control cable/rods cut.. and etc.. makes out for a lot of interesting situations.

 ...

 But what I'd really like more than anything, is to see the planes with internal support structures.

 In IL2/FB, one interesting point is that the differences between the weapons are very clear. In that game, it is very unlikely to cause a catastrophical structural failure with .50s.

 The .50s usually cause fires, engine failure(radiator, supercharger, engine oil), control failure(aileron/elevator/rudder cable/rods cut).. and the pilot is in most cases forced to bail out from his plane. If you put in enough .50 rounds to actually saw through the internal supports, the chances are, the plane would actually explode before the wings or tails snap off - since it is much more likely the .50s snag a fuel tank before it "saws through" a wing spar/section with multiple rounds.

 On the other hand, cannons of 20mm and above literally blow pieces off planes, which is much more likely to cause structural failures, before any damage is done to the engine or control systems.
 
 This makes an interesting tactical difference between the planes. Planes don't go down immediately with .50 fire... but the chances of ruining some very vital, internal component is much higher than cannons, not to mention the .50s are easier to hit with. Also, fires happen a lot more commonly with concentrated .50 fire - no doubt, the incendiary rounds are doing their trick in IL2/FB.

 In case of the cannons, they are harder to hit with, but cause more damage upon impact, and a concentrated burst will bring down a plane immediately, by ripping the control surfaces off.

 

 I don't know if AH2 has that kind of internal DM... but I don't think so. If it does, then obviously it's not enough.

 Now, the 1C: Maddox guys took something like 5~6 patches and about a whole year to get the feel of it right... but once its done, it really shines - well worth the effort, IMO.

[Wilbus]

Laser I can fly just aswell after being hit as before.

Yes Kweassa that is something to what I have requested before but I think it may be too much for AH/HTC with the ToD and everything now. Simly increasing (not sure if it is "simply") the number of parts would be a big step on the way IMO.

[hubsonfire]

As an aside, the severity of the oil hits varies. I'm not sure about radiator hits, but fuel leaks are the same way. Whether the weapon which damages them has a particular effect on the randomizing, I don't really know.

The idea of more damageable parts or varying degrees of damage to them is interesting. I saw someone in game express frustration at the damaged flap effect. The game shows the flap being shot completely off, but the flap's effect remains if the flap was deployed. I'll agree that this doesn't make a great deal of sense.

 I'd like to see some changes made to the damage model as well, but I suspect we won't see any changes along those lines until all of the current models have been revamped.

[Billy Joe Bob]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Me, I'd like an 'internal model' and an 'external model'.

 Since we already receive engine/oil/rad damages, I guess there's an 'internal' damageable part in the game to some extent... but IMO it could use some more parts. For instance, in IL2/FB there are some more interesting levels of damage.. like the supercharger being busted, or the throttle control system stuck.. the control cable/rods cut.. and etc.. makes out for a lot of interesting situations.
 

yeah i talked to a b17 vet pilot and he said that one time flak came too close to the plane, like 10 ft right under, didnt cause major damage but the blast jammed the superchargers and the engines feathered out... it glided for "the longest 15 minutes i've ever experienced" quote the pilot. he called 51 cover which came, and thankfully nothing happened, but the engines came back alive when it got to thicker air(lower alt).

[Charge]

Also it would be interesting that damage would pile up on some part so if you get a 20mm into wing and experience added drag (counter with rudder) it would also be highly probable that that wing could snap under high G.

In "another game" (:-)) I once took so many .303 hits on my Stuka that I had to fly it with the rudder pressed almost fully to other side and the plane was so riddled with bulletholes that it flew so slow that it couldn't get over a small hill but had to ditch my plane before it.

So it is not impossible as it is done by others, but it probably would be a rather big change in code.

-C+

PS. An example could be that a wing can endure certain amount of energy without breaking ie. support the weight of the fuselage and ordnance. The load is translated to energy eg. Joules. So if you get a hit in the wing it reduces its ability to sustain Joules (the amount of joules the ammunition can deliver to structures)which it tries to support by meas of lift. If the loading gets over the wing's translated Joule endurance it snaps.

That would mean that you could in some cases fly on the edge of wing breakage without knowing it and if you would dive a bit too steeply or pull little excess Gs upon landing or something the wing would suddenly snap off.

[Charge]

it would also be nice if mg and cannons would have different hit sprites. Eg. 7.9mm would not give any indication of a single hit (unless it is of such type, OC), .50Cal would give a small flash, and 20mm would give a smokepuff (and flash) if it is of HE type. In some games even a few hits of mg fire remove lots of debris to indicate a hit and that is exaggaration IMO and not realistic.

-C+

[Wilbus]

Charge I believe different weapons have different hit sprites already. Most noticable is the 30mm which leaves a nice puff of smoke and fire (just before the plane leaves a bigger puff of smoke and fire )

[Kweassa]

Only the 30mm, 37mm, and 40mm cannons have that 'sprite'.

 All the rest are the same, only differing in size.

 The reason why AH does not use a 'exploding' type of hit sprite for 20mms too, in my own speculation, comes from the fact(or is it?) that AH2 does not model individual rounds according to their attributes.

 I've covered this in theammunition sequence and tracer color thread.

 For instance, the Hispano MkII cannon would fire in the sequence of;

 HET - AP - HE - AP

 If all four rounds connect, the pilot would see;

1) a yellow tracer round will be seen flying
2) first hit will 'burst' in explosion
3) second hit will be invisible
4) third hit will 'burst'
5) fourth hit will be invisible

 But in AH, all four rounds are treated as equal. We'd see four consecutive explosions, at unrealistically fast intervals, since all four will have to show the HE effect.

 
 ..

[Wilbus]

Believe HT has said that all rounds are modelled at their best depending on what they hit.

So hit an airplane it will be modelled as HE, GV as AP.

Don't take my word on it though.

[beauzo]

Another way to approach this that might be easier to add quickly and reduce management overhead is if the damage effect was interpolated over the number of hits the part took.  So, if a part can take a theoretical maximum of 2 cannon hits, 1 cannon hit would enact 50% of the damaged flight model effect.  In other words, your aileron, for example, would be 50% less effective.  

The addition of a bounded probability system with a hit location factor would give more realistic damage ratios.  For example, rather then the aileron being 50% less effective as a result of a "grazing" cannon shot, it might be closer to 10-20%.  Additionally, the probability funciton could allow complete failure on a single "lucky" shot, if the hit locaiton was very good.  In effect, this gives the surface of a part a "gradient of strength" vs weapon used.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I don't know about you, but if I've taken a lot of hits, I can't turn as well.  Parts will fly off if I'm turning hard.

That's only because something was damaged and what you saw fall off is what got shot off.  


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