Author Topic: playing into the hands of Osama  (Read 1389 times)

Offline Wotan

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playing into the hands of Osama
« on: September 18, 2001, 07:21:00 PM »
I've reading/watching many things about Osama bin Laden and if he is responsible for the WTC / Pentagon attacks I come away with the suspicion that we (the west) maybe playing into his hands.

It was in afghanistan that Osama made himself known to those taking in part in "Jihad" against godless communism. He has been for sometime locked inside afghanistan with several hundred of the same fellows who fought with him in russo/afghan war.

It has been reported that as a result of the withdrawl of the russians from afghanistan that the mujahideen became even more fanatical in their views toward the west.

There are numerous possibilities as to the causes for the hatred demonstrated against the US by some fundalmentalist Muslims. But what seemed to push osama into action against the US is the fact infidel troops are now stationed within the land of the 2 most holiest mosques within islam.

After Sudan asked Osama to leave he has been in afghanistan the place of the mujahideen's greatest victory against an infidel army in centuries.

If he is responsible for the attacks last week could he be trying to recreate this victory by dragging the west into the same type of war.

If we kill him he will most certainly become a martyr to the fundamentalist.

Do we really want to become entrenched in such a war with no possibility of ending it?

There will almost certainly be reprisals against the west and most certainly the next osama may rise out of the ashes of this one.

Angrier filled with more hatred and willing to push the bounds beyond what happened in New York. Are England France Germany Canada Russia resolute enough to stand by the US even if casualties rise.

Justice demands we act but does anyone else dread what might come of it?

Enough bravado and chest thumping even if we get osama easily in a covert op terrorism has been pushed to the next step.

This thread is about thought and consideration of the new world we maybe  entering. Please keep the "nuke the ragheads" replies in those other threads all ready filled with that crap.

Offline Eagler

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2001, 09:03:00 PM »
I think the best way to bust terrorism, after we kill a toejame load of them, is to follow the money..
Without the funds from various country/groups/individuals the network will dry up and at the same time those funds can be used to get the US/global enconomy back on track. I'd start with the SOB's who shorted the airline stocks last Tuesday..
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Offline Wotan

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2001, 09:06:00 PM »
just read a report osama doesnt have the money most think. He has fund raisers that are done under different fronts and the money is distributed by persons well removed from laden himself.

Thats the theory theres no hard evidence to implicate the money men.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2001, 11:50:00 PM »
the koran does not call christians and jews infidels, infidels are people who do not believe in god/allah.
Islam forbids the killing of innocent women and children, so it is binladen who has broken faith with allah.

this war will not be like the russo-afgan war , then the afgan had the support of many countries including USA.
Now it is only the taliban and binladens gang, iran ( which hates the taliban) has closed the eastern border, russian troops are in the north border,the anti-taliban afgan army ( 30,000 battle-hardend afgans) controls the east and has said they will support the USA, in the south you have NATO, there will be no resupply of the taliban this time, they can't fight a 10 year war with no resupply.


PS. i keep hearing about how the afgans defeated the british army 200 years ago (like that has any bearing on 2001)
200 years ago the US defeated the british army with a rag-tag army of farmboys and shop clerks, ( and a little help from the french)

Offline Hangtime

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2001, 01:03:00 AM »
He's a terrorist, and he's gonna die.

So are any others we find.

There's a War going against Terrorisim last time I checked.
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Offline Pongo

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2001, 01:46:00 AM »
"PS. i keep hearing about how the afgans defeated the british army 200 years ago (like that has any bearing on 2001)
200 years ago the US defeated the british army with a rag-tag army of farmboys and shop clerks, ( and a little help from the french)
"
nice angle...

Offline Pepe

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2001, 03:47:00 AM »
On the funding side, I would take 2 measures:

First: Go to each and every tax haven and seize each and every asset in them. Without questioning. Full embargo. Then, I would turn the charge of the proof on the other side. Anyone willing to recover his assets would have to justify where they come from, and their usage for last, say 5 years. Anyone means physical person, no trusts or corporations allowed. In tax haven concept I would include Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Luxembourg.

Second: I would enforce transparency. Any corporation would have to make public statement of their shareholders. I'm thinking on some kind or central registration office for the whole world. In case of the shareholders being corporations, trusts, etc., such corporations, trusts, shareholders should be made public. That chain until a physical person is found. Whenever the chain is broken and no physical person can be tracked, it's shares are nullified, Social Capital reduced accordingly, and shares amortized. Any corporation not listed here, would be forbidden to make business. This way we would know some names. It's crucial that we can name the suspects in this side of the problem

On the military side...the more I look at It, the less sense I see in attacking Afghanistan first. I mean, it HAS to be attacked, no matter what they do now. But I doubt severely that they would have to be in the first place. The reasons are:

  • It has no relevant military targets
  • It has no strategic vaule, at the time being
  • It's a terrain that favours enormously the deffender.
  • Even if we are able to occupy the whole of it, won't guarantee the capture of bin Laden.
  • Even if we are able to occupy the whole of it, won't solve the problem or be a significant step ahead.

Instead, if Irak ties with terrorists are proved, I would shift the military action there, to begin with. Occupy the country, and expropriate Oil resources. The reasons:

  • It's a rogue state by all means.
  • It's easier for mechanized forces.
  • Favours the attacker.
  • We've been there.
  • It's leader have to be removed as well.
  • It has relevant military targets.
  • We would be sending a strong, sharp and clear message to collaborators. This is crucial, in my oppinion, as I think there lies the heart of the problem.
  • In the eyes of muslims, won't be worse than attacking Afghanistan, and might be better tollerated.

I think we face a situation similar to that machines where you have to hammer some guy's head, while it arises briefly from spread holes. If we want to win, there is no need to hammer them. In fact, that's what the owner wants. We playing, and paying to play. If we want to win we need to things: unplug the machine, and kill the owner. As for political correctness, you can say imprision, expropriate, or whatever other kind word you want, instead of kill. I don't think I'll use them.

Cheers,

Pepe.

Offline Bodhi

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2001, 07:45:00 AM »
The question here is not whether we should worry about insulting or hurting everyone's view points / opinions here.  The bottom line is this, unless the US retaliates with a severe response, these fundamentalists will continue to murder innocents.  If we want this to stop, we have to be willing to go in there and do things most Americans consider "incorrect".  Make no mistake, this is a war, but a war unlike any other we have seen.  This is one that is not only going to be fought their, but over here.  Our collective response needs to be ruthless.
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Offline Fury

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »
What Hangtime said.

Simply stated, it's a war against terrorism, and he won't be the only target.  Once it starts, I'm sure there will be reprisals against the west.

Apparently Osama is already wanted for terrorist actions against the US on previous occasions, so whether or not he is responsible for 9-11-01 is moot, we'll still go after him based on previous activities.

Yes, I do want to become entrenched in a war against terrorism, no matter how long it takes.

No matter what action the US takes there will be reprecussions against us.  Do nothing, and they will strike again.  Do something, and you piss fanatics off even more.  It's a no-win situation and it's going to be ugly.

Offline Yeager

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2001, 09:08:00 AM »
There are numerous possibilities as to the causes for the hatred demonstrated against
the US by some fundalmentalist Muslims. But what seemed to push osama into action against the US is the fact infidel troops are now stationed within the land of the 2 most                 holiest mosques within islam.
====
Woton,

Where is the land with the 2 most holiest mosques within Islam?

Exactly who are these infidel troops?

And why are they infidels?

Yeager

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Yeager ]
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Offline Pepe

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2001, 09:44:00 AM »
Yeaguer,

3 sacred places in Islam:

Mecca (sp?) 1st. holy place, and end to the pilgrimage each muslim has to make at least once in his lifetime.

Medina: 2nd holy place, place where Muhammad hided in his exile.

Jerusalem: 3rd. holy place. The Rock Mosque is the second in importance, after Mecca's one.

Mecca & Medina are in Saudi Arabia, where U.S. troops are stationed.

Both U.S. & Israeli troops are infidels. To a muslim, any other religion is "infidel". Even the mildest muslim is very strict in his intollerance about other religions. This extend to no atheists or agnostics.

I'm talking by heart, so anyone with better information, please correct me.

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline Dowding

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2001, 12:22:00 PM »
That the Afghans beat the British over 200 years ago is no surprise. The army in question was predominantly made up of native soldiers bolstered by a small British force, and was in retreat from Kabul I believe. It also carried with it an extensive bagage train. Couple all that with the fact that the Afghans were highly mobile mounted troops using the terrain to their advantage, and you can probably see why the outcome was as it was.

The terrain is the Afghan's best ally - always has been, always will be.
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Offline Ripsnort

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2001, 12:48:00 PM »
Once we start the draft, and are entrenched in war, I wonder if Canada will get as many dodgers as they did in the 60's?

Offline AKSWulfe

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2001, 12:51:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Once we start the draft,

Who said we're going to?

Being the only son (not only sibling though), I can not be drafted.

Nuts to that, I'll enlist if I have to!
-SW

Offline Wotan

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playing into the hands of Osama
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2001, 12:53:00 PM »
Saudi Arabia
US troops
godless individuals (percieved by osama)
osama doesn't view America as a Judeo-Christian Nation we represnt the great Satan these are not just words or propaganda. They actually beleave it.

<short very short history>

Osama  informed the Saudis that Iraq would in all likely hood occupy Kuwait. When the Iraqis did it was his wish that the mujahideen be used (or atleast all muslim troops) be used to expel the Iraqis. Most Islamic nations allied themselves with the west. Some speculate that the Saudis were fearfull of Osama and the mujahideen would not stop at freeing kuwait.

When US troops went to the gulf most entered through Baharain(sp) but to the digust of a large portion of the muslim world we sent troops (at the invite of the Saudis) to be stationed in Saudi Arabi. This was a direct insult to their religious beliefs.

It was at this point when Osama became an agitator in Saudi Arabi. He opposes the Saudi royal family and describes them as "corrupt". He then exiled himself to Sudan.

It was here he started several buisness and took with him about 200 members of the afghan resistance.

We then have 2 buildings which house us troops within Saudi Arabi truck bombed. Sudan asks Osama to leave he goes back to afghanistan. Hes then implicated in the embacy bombings in africa. He is implicated in the "millenium plot" (numerous targets in america and abroad were planned to be hit but were stopped in time). Then the US cole was bombed.

He has been pushing it futher and further. Now the WTC/Pentagon. What next.  

dont over analyz my choice of words. They were used for affect to demonstrate the thought process of osama and crew. At least thats how I percieve it.

Word games and all please adress the situation that I attempted to describe.

"Is it possible that Osama is dragging us into a type of war based on the Russian model"

"if so are we prepared to go the distance and how far are our allies prepared to go "

The Russians who historically are willing to take many more casualties then most armies were there for 10 years.

Also we can look to Chechnya where the russians were engaged much the same way as they were in afghanistan and have paid a large price not only in troops but in terror attacks through out that country.

I dont care nothing for the "kill um all " bravado. Most of you aren't going there and you know as well as I we (our government) wont do that. At worse we will be occupying afghanistan and at best we will interupt terrorism short term. In the long run though we must prepare ourselves for the terrorists to push the boundry further then they did in the attacks of last week.

There are other threads here for your bravado I was hoping for a relatively well thought discussion. oh well...........

<edit>
the terrorist network osama is allied with is called al qaeda. Its not an traditional organization. While Osama may represent its spiritual head it seems to mirror the concept of "leaderless resistance".

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]