Documentation of 2000HP Bf 109s in 1945

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by straffo
100m3 of fuel is really a low amount of fuel.
For a guppe of 3 staffel of 12  me109G with a 400 liter and 300 external  it less than 4 day of operation.

...that`s just storage on a given they. If you look at the graph, you`ll see that amount went up and down, indicating consumption and re-supply.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Well the C3 quality problems come right of YOUR own website, as part of Olivers research. The same part that lists C3 fuel shortage.

[/B]

That`s an undocumented opinion appearantly, so I treat it as such.

If they had documented C3 fuel quality problems as Oliver states then by brining it up to acceptable levels they are going to lose quantity.

[/B]

You are speaking about quality problems for which there`s no evidence, and then came up with more nonsense.

Didn't miss the ANR fuel status, jsut doesn't pertain to fuel status in Germany.

[/B]

How come, the ANR received all it`s fuel supply from Germany, as was pointed out dozens of times already. How come German fuel supply is not representative of German fuel supply...?  Desperate, aren`t you?

Knegel - Before his recent update, his website said 'quantity', now reads 'quality'.

Which is simple an outright lie, trying to back up your previous lie about my translation.

Fairly simple to check, my first post with the translation was
09-12-2005 01:49 PM, where I wrote  "C-3 fuel is available for use in unreduced quality". It hadn`t been edited since.

Kev 367 wrote on 09-17-2005 12:12 AM  that : "This is a totaly different meaning to "unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.

But as seen, there had been no changes to either to the website - that wasn`t changed ever since it came out - or the post, Kev is just a pathological liar for all to see.

[Kev367th]

Actaully - Only a desperate man resorts to personal insults once he realises his personal pet fantasy has been shot down in flames - AGAIN.
Rather than back it up with clear evidence.
BTW - Your ANA 'report' shows then recieving J2 fuel, WHY?

[MiloMorai]

Well you need to make a change, as at one point in your article you have III./JG27 only having G-10s and further down you have the same unit having K-4s and some Gs.

So which a/c?

Yes Kev he has NEVER answered why the Italians received J2.

He has also not produced the graph he mentions to Straffo.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
...that`s just storage on a given they. If you look at the graph, you`ll see that amount went up and down, indicating consumption and re-supply.

oops ... my bad I thought it was the delivery for the whole period , sorry.

[Knegel]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
This is what Butch says, and is taken from Kurfie's own 109K-4 web site article:

"And even after the clearance only few gruppen got it because of shortages due not only to C3 production but also to C3 delivery to the units."

"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944."

"At least DB documents underlined the need for cleaner fuels than those in use at that time."

The question is, why does he totally ignore Butch's words?

Knegel,

I am not saying the 109 did not use C3 but am questioning the availability of C3 for 109 units that needed it for 1.98 operation since the 190 had the greater need for C3.

No authentic proof has been produced to show that these units did in fact receive enough C3 to conduct operations in force. Penny pocket operations by the few operational a/c??? No authentic proof has been produced that the 4 Gruppen had completely converted to 1.98.


Still waiting for an answer on what jets the Italians operated Kurfie.

Hi,

the 'Reparatur-Anleitung' clearly state that C3 was available in high quality and that 'C' engines got delivered!!

The 'C' engines did need C3 fuel, without they wasnt usable, if the 1.98 ata was cleared, i dont see a reason why they shouldnt use it, if not, who care, 2000HP would have been enough anyway.

Actually i think for now many people 1. didnt agree that 2000HP 109´s got used and 2. many still mix up the 1.8 ata poweroutput with the 1.98 ata poweroutput!!

605DC 1.8ata + MW50 = 2000HP
605DC 1.98ata + MW50 = ?????

605DB 1.8ata + B4 + MW50 = 1850HP
605DB 1.8ata + C3 = 1850HP
605DB 1.8ata + C3 + MW50 = 1850HP
605DB 1.98 + C3 + MW50 = 2000HP??? ( i dont saw any related testsdatas).

So my question again: How many 'C' engines saw service??
They had 2000HP with 1.8ata + MW50, if 1.98ata got used isnt relevant here.

And other questions:
1. Iis there a hint that they did try to use the 605DB with 1.98ata + C3 + MW50, and what should have been the poweroutput?
2. What should have been the power of a 605DC + 1.98ata + MW50??

Greetings, Knegel

[Kev367th]

Hi Knegel - High quality C3 which means they fixed their late 1944 fuel quality problems, does not mean high availabilty.

Quality - How good something is
Quantity - How much of something there is

Everything points to they had fixed their fuel quality problems, but its was scarce.
Scarce to the point they were cutting down fuel to non-critical units throughtout 1945.
In fact by Apr/May 45 the quantity of fuel available to non-critical (ie training, transport, production, delivery etc) units was only 1/3 of the Jan levels.

[MiloMorai]

Knegel,

"In the JaPo book on the Bf109K (p.81), Janda and Poruba mention the differences between the DB605DB and DC as being dependent not on fuel compatibility, but on maximum boost pressure. The maximum manifold pressure figures quoted are as follows:

- DB605DB: 1.80 ata at 2,800 r.p.m., giving 1,850 h.p. (no performance difference noted between B4 and C3 fuel usage)

- DB605DC: (with MW50) 1.98 ata at 2,800 r.p.m., giving 2,000 h.p

(without MW50) 1.80 ata at 2,800 r.p.m., giving 1,850 h.p



However, J.C. Mermet (p. 14, 15) quotes an official Daimler-Benz factory manual dated 5 December 1944 concerning the different designations. The B designation indicated the engine was capable of using 87 octane B4 fuel WITH MW50, or 96 octane C3 fuel WITHOUT MW50 whereas the C designation indicated the use of 96 octane C3 fuel WITH MW50.

Interestingly, the engine could be converted from a B to a C model and back again by the simple expedient of adjusting a screw valve which regulated the flow of MW50 to the engine. This would seem to be the more proper explanation, especially given the chaotic fuel situation in the Reich from 1944 onwards. It can also be seen how the different fuel configurations would account for the maximum permissible boost ratings as noted by Janda and Poruba. There is still discussion on this point, however, and further documentation may yet refine this point.



The maximum power figures between the two sources do agree, although Mermet points out that the 1.98 ata figure of the C motor was attainable only with MW50 at 110% emergency power, and operation of the B motor without MW50 would be limited to a maximum manifold pressure of 1.45 ata, and 100% power was not available anywhere within the flight regime (Note: these restrictions did not apply if MW50 was used with the B motor)"

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/systems/engine/as_vs_d/as_vs_d.htm
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

I don't see this combination mentioned > '605DB 1.98 + C3 + MW50 = 2000HP'

[Knegel]

Hi,

AHA, now i got it, 605DC 1,98ata + MW50 = 2000HP.

compare this both tests:





You will see that both planes have identical performence, but one use the DB605DB 1.8ata + B4 + MW50, while the other use the DB605DC 1.8ata + C3 without MW50!!
Imho this show that both engines have very similar power and that is around 1850HP! So far so good.

As you say, the 'C' engine engine was made to use C3 + MW50 and this gave 2000HP.  If the usage of this powersetting wasnt allowed, it wouldnt make sence to deliver 'C' engines at all, cause the engine already brought 1850HP with 1.8ata without MW50,  but as we know they did deliver 'C' engines before 14 March 1945.

And again, the 'Reparatur-Anleitung' clearly state that they had enough (quantity) C3 fule in high quality, so a rebuilding of the 'C' engines wasnt needed!

Regarding the converting from 'B' to 'C' engine, we can read that at least the ignition needed to get changed and a different sparkplug was needed! The hint in the Reparatur-Anleitung' that engines which got produced as 'C' engines dont need to get changed, make me believe that that converting wasnt as easy as many may think. The different poweroutput, while using 1.8ata, but one time 1.98 ata basic setting(Grundeinstellung) and the other time 1.8ata basic setting, clearly show that there was other differents than to adjust the ata setting!

Greetings, Knegel

[butch2k]

The february T-Amt documents precise that DB605DC are to be delivered to units set at 1.8ata for the moment. Note as well that DB605DC were not fitted into production a/c until mid January 1945 as per DB documents.

[Knegel]

Hi Butch,

what sence a DC engine make if only 1.8ata was allowed ??

They must have been crazy to deliver DC engines instead of DB engines then! Same power but the need of C3 fuel dont seems to make sence to me, thats a big step backward, specialy with possible fuel supply problems.

On the other hand, we know they was crazy.

Greetings, Knegel

[Kurfürst]

OTOH, Knegel, the 1.98ata testing for the DC was well underway in January when they started putting the DC into engines, and was likely to be finished soon and successfully - as in fact it did a month later in Feb. Until then they could run at 1.8ata for 1800-1850(?) PS, and asa 1.98ata was cleared, a mechanic approached to plane, made sure BERU spark plugs were fitted, adjusted the boost regulator to 1.98 - and voila, a 2000 PS engine comin` right up! Unless I missed something.

Apart from making changeover very quick by thinking ahead, I guess DC/1.8ata/c3 would be less risky than the DB/1.8ata/b4. The latter was really stretching the boundaries, considering it`s only 87 octane fuel in a 1.8ata and as high as 8.5:1 CR engine...

[Angus]

Some evolution of the boost:
1.3  1,42 then on to 1,8 and 1,98?
Something missing and what and when?

[Kurfürst]

Well....
(note dates are when it was in action for sure, the engine itself may have, and in most cases did  exist before that)

1939
DB 601A-1 : 1.30 (1.40)
DB 601Aa  : 1.35 (1.45)

1940
DB 601N : 1.35ata

1941
DB 601E 1.3, then in `42 1.42ata

1942
DB 605A : 1.3ata, then in `43 sept 1.42ata

1944 :
605AM and ASM : 1.7ata
605DM : 1.75ata

44/45 :
605DB/ASB : 1.8ata
605DC/ASC : 1.8, then 1.98ata (perhaps there was 1.9ata interim)

Planned for DC : up to 2.3ata known
IMHO it`s only half a story, since CR also increased a lot, about by 1/3!

[Angus]

Jolly nice.
I may have some input later, - will keep you posted.