Possibly the best pilot of the war?

[jaxxo]

Hartmann used to drag british ftrs across the channel where they would be promptly bounced by a horde of trainee's waiting at altitude.many early british tactics were revised and the brits turned the tide (the famous "row of idiots" formation dubbed by german ftrs did not last very long)..whos the ju87 driver who had like 500 ground kills..that was pretty impressive

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Smiggyy
For me this guy was the epitomy of Britain during the war.

The guy lost both legs during a "show off" and was consigned to the scrap heap.

He battled through his own demons to walk again with the aid of tin legs.
When war broke out he fought the Ministry Of Defence who said that although he was capable of flying he wasn't fit to do so.
He challenged them and won, he flew up the ranks becoming an "ace" on way, took a rag tag bunch of Canadians who had evacuated from Dunkirk, groomed them into what was to become a famous part of the "Duxford Wing". A tactic he perfected to always have fighter squadrons airborne and not on ground. He was sick of engaging bombers and fighters on the climb.

He was shot down and captured and to the best of knowledge escaped 3 times, once even after having his legs removed as a precaution!

He finally saw out the rest of the war in Colditz.

There is a famous picture of him sat in a 109, Adolf Galland a pre-war friend, on hearing of his capture, invited him to dinner at the chateaux he was frequenting, then let him see inside the 109. It shows him in the cockpit with Galland pointing out dials etc.
The funny thing is, on the ground is another german office, luger drawn, just in case!!
His character and determination had preceded him!

He led the VE day fly over in London and I think finally attained the rank of Wing Commander.

A true "FIGHTER pilot"



Smiggs

Without the Polish Squadrons the RAF might have folded.

Karaya

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Nomak
Please explain how your statement pertains in any way to teh discussion at hand or the comment that I made.

Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point.  Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities.  It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture.  That's why I suggested you finish reading his book because you'll find a better example on his last mission where the LW was able to muster what turned out to be the largest force they could field but still enountered an outnumbering Allied force.


ack-ack

[me62]

Originally posted by jaxxo
Hartmann used to drag british ftrs across the channel where they would be promptly bounced by a horde of trainee's waiting at altitude.many early british tactics were revised and the brits turned the tide (the famous "row of idiots" formation dubbed by german ftrs did not last very long)..whos the ju87 driver who had like 500 ground kills..that was pretty impressive

Hans Ulrich Rudel

Knights Cross of the Iron Cross
with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.

Mike

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point.  Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities.  It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture.  


ack-ack

[me62]

Had he lived longer; I am sure he would have been right up there
with Eric Hartmann.  

Mike

[me62]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point.  Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities.  It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture.  That's why I suggested you finish reading his book because you'll find a better example on his last mission where the LW was able to muster what turned out to be the largest force they could field but still enountered an outnumbering Allied force.


ack-ack

Are you talking about the huge fighter sweep they made on New Year's Day 1945?  

Mike

[Nomak]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point.  Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities.  It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture.  That's why I suggested you finish reading his book because you'll find a better example on his last mission where the LW was able to muster what turned out to be the largest force they could field but still enountered an outnumbering Allied force.


ack-ack

Well Ack Ack I certainly give you pionts for at least hanging out and making a counter point

"Piss poor example" I of course think not.  I by no means was trying to "paint the whole picture" in that quote.

What I was trying to accomplish however was to shoot holes in the broad and generalized statements made by many LuftWeenies on this and many other boards that the "Allies whooped on em because of the same way countries get whooped on in the game.  Numbers."  Which is of course in many instances total nonsense.

So your example is "better" because it shows a different set of circumstances than mine?  Whatever.

[RELIC]

Hartmann never flew against the Brits "over the channel".

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its funny to see the exteremes of both arguments:

1) Allies are no skill horde dweebs

2) LW are lying nazis

I think the truth is that the top LW pilots saw more combat actian than just about anybody, saw more enemies and shot more down. The allied pilots had less of this opportunity to kill because they flew tours and rotated back home to train new pilots and rest up, which was something they could afford to do because of men and material advantages of the allied side - which is why, in general the allies won the war. The LW guys hads to keep fighting. The remarkable thging is how many of them did survive for a long time and kept getting kill after kill.

So clearly the LW produced the most experienced and succesful combat pilots in the history of the world, but the reason they did this was the same reason they lost the war in thev long run.

there ya go.

And just like the MA. You can have a situation where one side has clear numerical advantage yet you will see fairly even sided furballs here and there. but the side with the lessor numbers can only put up so many planes to cover so many areas leaving the rest of the numberically superiour side to pretty much be able to do as it pleases.

So yes, you will have situations where even when one side has a numerical disadvantage they can have an advantage in smaller local areas but not all there areas that need to be covered.

Unlike the Ma The Germans could not readily replace lost pilots at the same rate the allies could because they had superior numbers. And because of such superiour nmbers the allies were able to take the time to better train their pilots then  the germans could
 Eventually attrition took its toll.

Now to adress some things.

I never said the Allied pilots werent any good so how my  statement could be "insulting to allied pilots" is beyond me.
Not that I would care if they were insulted by my statement.

Surely both sides had some very good pilots. Both sides probably had some pretty poor ones also
 But to claim one sides aces overall were better then another sides aces is rediculous. I was talking about one specific pilot. Not the german airforce as a whole. Now if I had said "Germany had the best pilots of the war" Then I could understand how some would be inclined to dissagree. But thats not what I said.

As for german record keeping

We all know how lax the germans were in their record keeping.



After all they didnt keep accurate records of anything that might make them look bad now did they?
 http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=photos&ke=87

So records they kept are hardly to be belived.

And we all know that history is written by the victors and every record they keep is always 110% accurate and cant possibly be wrong LOL

[jaxxo]

ok it wasnt Hartmann.. i forgot who it was..the name isnt the point its the tactics i found interesting..

[Bruno]

British pilots in North Africa were highly trained fliers, fully on a par with the Germans. Given the extremely light combat load of the ME-109F, the 17 kill a day claims by Marseille would only have been possible if his well-trained victims flew straight and level while he aimed and shot to his heart's content.

You really don't what you are talking about. I suggest you pick up a copy of 'Fighters over the Desert' by Shores and Ring. Its not a cheap book or easy to come by but its the definitive work on this subject.

Marseille's first mission that day:
4 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 0926, 0928, 0935, and 0938 hrs) with 80 cannon shells and 240 machine-gun rounds.

According to Shores/Ring, these were the pilots in the aircraft which Marseille claimed shot down:
 Lt Bailey (1 SAAF sqn) force-landed his Hurricane

 Maj Metelerkamp (1 SAAF sqn) was injured and had his Hurricane badly shot up

 F/O Matthews (238 sqn) had his Hurricane shot down

 P/O Bradley-Smith (601 sqn) had his Spitfire shot down.

Marseille's second mission that day:
8 enemy fighters ("P-40s") claimed shot down( at 1155, 1156, 1158, 1159, 1201, 1202, 1203, and 1205 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, Lt Remmer claimed one P-40 on the same mission.
According to Shores/Ring, six British fighters were shot down during an escort mission for bombers.

Marseille's third mission that day:
5 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 1847, 1848, 1849, 1850, and 1853 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, four enemy fighters were claimed shot down by other German pilots on the same mission.

According to Shores/Ring, five Hurricanes of 213 sqn and one Hurricane of 208 sqn that were shot down approximately at the same time probably are identical with at least some of the German claims on that mission.

Shores and Ring list a number of additional Allied fighters lost in combat in Egypt on 1 September 1942 - although it has not been possible to verify the exact time (hour & minute):

Sgt. Sowerby, 3 RAAF sqn, was shot down

5 SAAF sqn had four of its fighters shot down

2 SAAF sqn and 64 U.S. sqn lost three P-40s on one mission

According to Shores/Ring, some of these (at least one of 5 SAAF sqn's losses) are among the six fighters which were shot down when they escorted bombers and - probably - were encountered by Marseille on his second mission on 1 September 1942.

Due to Shores/Ring, the official Allied losses in North Africa on 1 September 1942 amount to 22 aircraft (9 Hurricanes, 4 Kittyhawks, 4 Tomahawks, 2 Spitfires, 1 U.S. Warhawk, and 2 Beaufighters).

But what does it really matter if Marseille only got 14 that day or if his actual kill total was 120 rather then 158. His claims were filed based on fact not on Nazi propaganda.

There were folks in JG27 that out and out lied about their kills. One Rotte of 4 was spotted firing their guns in the desert by a LW recce aircraft. This group  when they returned to base later filed kill claims. Among this group was Franz Stigler. The group of 4 was broken up and sent to separate units.

But there are plenty of 'questionable' claims and stories that get told over and over again from all sides.

Look at the Thompson/Hartmann thread.

Everyone has heard about the June 26, 1943 event where Lt. Robert S. Johnson is bounced by FW-190s and is almost shot down and then another FW-190s "escorts" him to the French coast.

In Roger Freeman's book on the 56th FG "Wolfpack Warriors" Freeman has a statement from Gerald Johnson where he claims that he shot the FW-190 from R.S. Johnson's tail and that his claim of being escorted by the 190 was an exaggeration of what really happened.

From times and location Gerald Johnson was convinced that the FW190 he shot down was that which shot up his namesake's P-47. He heard Bob's story and said nothing, although he thought that in the excitement Bob had let his imagination run away with him concerning the chivalrous German pilot. No such incident was reported from the German side.

Guppy

Also keep in mind again that Mersaille was intercepting RAF fighter bombers doing their job. These were P40s and Hurricanes down low with him having the advantage in terms of air combat.

Marseille was more likely to attack the escort or the cap rather then go after bombers or fighter bombers. He was a lone wolf that went for kills. Most his combats were fought with him with a clear advantage.

The Desert Air Force was very tactically oriented in it's role.

Yes they were and thats why even pilot as skilled as Marseille may have been his achievements and kill count did very little to effect the flow of battle.

As I said above there are plenty of 'great' pilots and 'fighters' on all sides. Imagine Robert S. Johnson's kill count had he flown 800 combat missions in a target rich enviroment.

Was Marseille the 'best'? I doubt it, but who is to say?

[Smiggyy]

I concur on that 100%

The reading I have done on that very subject backs that up.
They fought with something we, (RAF), initially didn't possess.

Pure and utter hatred for our foes.

Most Hurri's or Spits had only about 30/40 secs of continuous MG fire. Most pilots would loose a 5/10 second burst, draw smoke then move to the next. These guys would chase a bomber and empty the whole lot and/or chase it down to make doubly sure it went down and stayed down.

--------------------------

A Question of Honor
The Kosciuszko Squadron:
Forgotten Heroes of World War II

by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud


--------------------------


Didn't omit them delibarately from my initial entry, was just concentrating on Douglas Bader as an individual.

Smiggs.

[Gianlupo]

I think that no one can say that pilot X was the best of the war... what I can say is that, though admiring pilots who fought the war, regardless their nationality, I like Marseille a bit more than the others... I think he was an amazing fighter pilot, and  I really envy is firing skills maybe he was the best shooter of the war.

But I had to choose a pilot for his overall skills, not only as a flyer and a shooter, I'd like to be Moelders or Malan: great pilots and fine tacticians.

Just a couple of things:

Kweassa:

those that died in combat can't really be used as meaningful comparisons in these sorts of discussions.

Are you referring to Marseille, too? Actually, he died in a flight incident, not in combat.

Smiggyy:

Most Hurri's or Spits had only about 30/40 secs of continuous MG fire.

It seems too much to me: IIRC, Hurry I & Spit I had no more than 15, maybe 20 seconds of continuous fire.

[Balsy]

Its obvious Marseille, was unplugging, and plugging in his cable modem to get that many kills.

balsy