Author Topic: Possibly the best pilot of the war?  (Read 1952 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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Possibly the best pilot of the war?
« on: September 17, 2005, 07:49:18 PM »
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Hans Joachim Marseille

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"
Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware.

Facts are that Marseille is still acknowledged as among the best marksmen in the Luftwaffe. The Germans were very meticulous in filing combat reports with all relevant data to include time of battle, area of operation, opposition encountered, as well as an in-depth armorers report. At the end of a mission, the armorers would count the number of bullets and cannon shells expended during the fight. Marseille would often average an astonishing 15 bullets required per victory, and this with a combat resulting in his downing of several allied aircraft. No other German pilot was close to Marseille in this area"

"On 15 September, 1942, for example, Marseille destroyed 7 Australian fighter aircraft within an eleven minute period and on 17 June, 1942, Marseille destroyed six aircraft within a seven minute period. The table below illustrates the quickness of many of Marseille's multiple kills.

A Sample of Multiple Kill Sorties Achieved by Marseille


Victories   Date         Times of Victories   
88  thru 91   15 Jun 42   1902, 1903, 1904, 1905   
92 thru 95     16 Jun 42   1902, 1910, 1911, 1913   
96 thru 101    17 Jun 42   1202, 1204, 1205, 1208, 1209, 1212   
105 thru 108   01 Sep 42   0828, 0830, 0833, 0839*   
109 thru 116   01 Sep 42   1055, 1056, 1058, 1059, 1101, 1102,
            1103, 1105*   
117 thru 121   01 Sep 42   1846, 1847, 1848, 1849, 1853*   
127 thru 132   03 Sep 42   0820, 0823, 0829, 1608, 1610, c.1611   
137 thru 140   06 Sep 42   1803, 1813, 1814, 1820   
145 thru 151   15 Sep 42   1751, 1753, 1755, 1757, 1759, 1800,
            1802   
152 thru 158   26 Sep 42   0910, 0913, 0915, unk, 1656, 1659,
            1715   
                     * Indicates a total of 17 aircraft shot
                                down on this day.   


Marseille's ingenious tactics were made successful because of his unique and masterful flying abilities. Other pilots who tried to emulate Marseille, but failed to master their own aircraft, were not as successful. It is interesting to note that two of the other most successful German pilots in the desert also used Marseille's tactics to achieve many their victories. Still many Allied historians refuse to believe that Marseille was as successful and deadly as the Germans claim. Keep in mind that during the Marianas Turkey Shoot, on June 19, 1944, US Navy pilot David McCambell shot down 7 Japanese aircraft on a single sortie, and another 9 on 24 October, 1944. Major William Shomo was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for downing 7 Japanese aircraft in a single sortie on 11 January, 1945. Many pilots on both sides of the war were credited with multiple kills on single sorties. Marseille just happened to make a deadly habit of it.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Possibly the best pilot of the war?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2005, 09:08:06 PM »
He certainly shot down more wesrern pilots than LW ace.

Hartmann shouldnt be discounted tho, all but a handfull of his 352 kills came AFTER mid 1943 whenn the Russian airforce was quite a threat.

Offline jaxxo

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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2005, 10:17:05 PM »
I am assuming this is a response to the post involving U.S. ftr pilots....men are men people are people...anyone is capable of these feats no matter the nation..Germans had great pilots due to training..experience...and technology...when they lost all of these things they became mortals as the allies were when they entered the war...allies whopped on em just as they themselves were beat down initially.

Offline DH367

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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2005, 10:45:34 PM »
AL GORE was best fighter pilot he invented dogfighting.

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Possibly the best pilot of the war?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2005, 10:46:04 PM »
Erich Hartmann.

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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2005, 12:09:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by jaxxo
I am assuming this is a response to the post involving U.S. ftr pilots....men are men people are people...anyone is capable of these feats no matter the nation..Germans had great pilots due to training..experience...and technology...when they lost all of these things they became mortals as the allies were when they entered the war...allies whopped on em just as they themselves were beat down initially.


No actually I posted this because I found it while looking at sites on 109Fs.

Allies whooped on em because of the same way countries get whooped on in the game.

Numbers
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Offline Rino

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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2005, 12:17:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
No actually I posted this because I found it while looking at sites on 109Fs.

Allies whooped on em because of the same way countries get whooped on in the game.

Numbers


     That's incredibly insulting to allied fighter pilots and stupid
beyond belief as well.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2005, 12:17:57 AM »
I think Ken Sparks woulda been one of the best had they left him in theater....
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Offline Delirium

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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2005, 12:44:35 AM »
This whole thread is subjective and rife with bitterness...

There is no real answer, as there are plenty of factors including luck.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2005, 01:00:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
That's incredibly insulting to allied fighter pilots and stupid
beyond belief as well.


But it is true, at least in the general sense of the war. The germans were outnumbered heavily in men and material by fighing against uk, ussr and the usa.

The massive material advantages of the allies takes nothing away from or insults the bravery or skill of allied fighting men but discounting the enormous impact of that advantage on thye course of the war it is equally insulting to history.

The material advantages of the alles allowed them to field many more and better trained average pilots late in the war, both are results of material advantages.

Imagine how the normandy landings would have gone if more than 2 LW fighters attacked the beaches.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2005, 01:51:56 AM »
GRUNHERZ,

But that isn't the implication of his phrasing.  The implication is that the Allied fighter pilots were simply inferior, untermencsh even, and they they would have been helpless in reversed situations.

Who is to say what Bong, Tuck, Gabreski, Malan, McCampbell,   Beurling, Preddy or Pattle would have done if they'd been in the position of a Hartman, Juutilainen, Nishizawa or Rall.

His implication was that those Allied aces only had any success at all because they had the massive numbers on their side and that simply is not true.


Johnnie Johnson pointed out to one such critic that he didn't see that many enemy aircraft through the whole war so he could hardly be expected to post a number like the top German aces and to expect such is unreasonable.  That isn't saying Johnson wasn't extremely deadly in the air, just that he never had the comparitive opportunity to use that lethality.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2005, 02:06:45 AM »
CC, if thats what he means then I disagree with that point of view as well, Karnak.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2005, 02:37:21 AM »
Some of you people are unbeleiveable
I will respond to these fabricated insinuations of what I ment by what I said.
But I will do it tomorrow.
Right now Im gonna go and chuckle to myself over this and what some of you wrote as I go to bed.

But those who would put hidden meanings to my words consider this.

In the MA if one country steamrolls another country due to numbers. Does that take anything away from the good pilots of the winning country?
Does numerical advantage make them any less good then they would have been had the numbers been equal?
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2005, 03:56:20 AM »
comparing allied and LW pilot kills is pointless. As said above LW pilot was guarentied to find allied planes when he took off - mostly since it was interception missions and they were directed to the enemy, not flying randomly till they came uppon them.

Numerical advantage is different in RL than in the game. There could be hundreds of planes in the air but battles are still a few vs a few. You have to be close to an enemy in order to ID him and engage. In AH once a single enemy is taking off and appears on dar, all planes the sector are racing each other to kill it - because they KNOW he's there and the tag makes friend-foe ID very easy.

check out Johnson's kills per sortie in which he saw the enemy. I don't have the numbers but I remember it was impressive. Most of the allied "ace in one" sorties were in situations where the enemy had the numbers.

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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2005, 04:02:56 AM »
Marseille was a good pilot but his success related directly to the his gunnery skills and the situation he faced in NA.

 Marseille basically preferred to fly alone. He would have his wingman stay out and away while he attacked alone. He claimed that in the desert with the clear skies and long range visibility that it was easier for a lone attacker to jump a large formation and caused havoc and confusion, hitting. He said that larger fromation were much more easily spotted then lone fighters. With hard maneuvering and fast close bursts of fire he was able to hit, kill and get away while the flight he attacked was thrown in panic.

He was less successful early on and it have been curious to see how he performed over WETO late in the war when JG27 was  flying Reich defense.

A curious thing about JG27 in NA is they mostly went after fighters. Rarely did they go after bombers or low flying ground attack aircraft.

There were plenty of great pilots on all sides during the war. The LW and Axis lost, despite however "great" some of their pilots.

If you look at LW pilots like Willi Reschke, he flew about 48 combat missions and was shot down 8 times.

Then compare that to some one like Adi Glunz, he flew a total of 574 missions, including 238 with enemy contact, in achieving 71 victories (with a possible 15 more unconfirmed) mostly flying in the west. He was never shot down or damaged in enemy combat.