Author Topic: P-51D Skin (Read 1479 times)

Fencer51 · « **on:** September 18, 2005, 04:54:16 PM »

Ok, I am now a paying customer, so I have some questions.

There is a P-51D skin in the game, its the default skin, that is screwed up. The Squadron and plane codes on the starbord (thats right for you LA drivers) side are backwards. See picture below.

Also, what is with the dark line between the tail and the canopy?
I am sure its meant to be an antenna. But seriously folks, other than models has anyone got a picture
of a WW2 P-51D that you can see that antenna on? And if so is 2 inches in diameter like this one? Why is this part of the skin?

Guppy35 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 18, 2005, 05:08:16 PM »

Good eyes Fencer. Guess I better look closer at 51s

I was bothered by the narrow ID band on the vertical tail. Turns out it wasn't there at all.

Agreed on the antenna. I put some on P51 profiles I did and got mugged by 51 guys pointing out that the WW2 birds didn't use that radio antenna.

It shouldn't be there.

C3 was the Squadron code and should be infront of the star and bar on the right side. The RAF kept the squadron code behind the roundel for the most part, but USAAF practice was to have it in front of the insignia on both left and right side.

You can see the C3 on the right in the image below of that bird. M is the individual aircraft letter in the squadron.

Waffle · « **Reply #2 on:** September 18, 2005, 07:02:12 PM »

On the call signs, I've got those backwards...slight oversight when throwing a skin together in 2 days....

As far as the black band, I've seen profiles with it both on and off.
I'll try to dig up one with it on when I get a chance. I really don't have much time right now.

I do know off hand that the 51s had the fin/rudder bands on all ordered removed on March 23 1944.

McWherter was in a 51b I think until 'very early '44, then recieved the 51D, Which might've had the fin marking, which was removed soon after (hence the profiles I've seen with it on)

Another discrepancy -

Acorrding to text documents, the 363rdFG had each squadron paint its nose area a different color, either red, blue or yellow. No black, which what is seen on most versions of Hoo Flung Dung.

Another thing I'm curious of, which I don't have the time to look into right now, was Mcwherters stint with the 17th pursuit squadron, and If that was before or after the ETO. And what marking did his plane carry there.

aye - too much to look into and no time...lol

I was actually in the process of doing a little clean up on the skin since I brezzed through it so quickly (most time was spent on the interior..lol) So I'll get around to changing the call signs on the right side.

As far as the band, and nose color - I would like to find more references as to the plane in certain time frames.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 18, 2005, 08:50:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Waffle BAS
On the call signs, I've got those backwards...slight oversight when throwing a skin together in 2 days....

As far as the black band, I've seen profiles with it both on and off.
I'll try to dig up one with it on when I get a chance. I really don't have much time right now.

I do know off hand that the 51s had the fin/rudder bands on all ordered removed on March 23 1944.

McWherter was in a 51b I think until 'very early '44, then recieved the 51D, Which might've had the fin marking, which was removed soon after (hence the profiles I've seen with it on)

Another discrepancy -

Acorrding to text documents, the 363rdFG had each squadron paint its nose area a different color, either red, blue or yellow. No black, which what is seen on most versions of Hoo Flung Dung.

Another thing I'm curious of, which I don't have the time to look into right now, was Mcwherters stint with the 17th pursuit squadron, and If that was before or after the ETO. And what marking did his plane carry there.

aye - too much to look into and no time...lol

I was actually in the process of doing a little clean up on the skin since I brezzed through it so quickly (most time was spent on the interior..lol) So I'll get around to changing the call signs on the right side.

As far as the band, and nose color - I would like to find more references as to the plane in certain time frames.

51Ds didn't arrive until very late May 44 prior to D-Day. McWherter's bird is obviously June 6th or beyond. I'll did through the 363rd FG history and see if there are any other photos. Seems like I have a decal sheet around here with those markings too.

And Waffle, if you are fixing the 51D, the weapon's pylons are interior green for some reason. Wonder where they get the color from?

As for the black nose. Natural metal P51Ds were delivered to the units with standard ETO markings which were the black ID bands and black nose and cowl ring. OD Mustangs were obviously delivered withthe white ID bands, nose and cowl ring.

Could be that in the rush of Ops around D-Day they didn't get around to the nose color, although the fact they got the nose art on makes you wonder why they didn't

Waffle · « **Reply #4 on:** September 18, 2005, 09:23:21 PM »

lol - I saw a pic , i think on a 47 or a 51 somewhere which the release mechanism fairings were yellow....

Now if it was the early chromate green, or yellow or some idiots feild mixed color - I dont know...

But i liked it - so its there

BTW, if you got the time, do you think you could check out the 17th pursuit squadron and when McWherters tod was with them in the pacific?

BTW - found the profile of it with the black stripe and red nose...will post later tonite or tommorrow....

Also - just for grins in the lowest pic you posted - on the rudder (which was natural metal) - the light white spot - remants of a paint removal process?

Citabria · « **Reply #5 on:** September 18, 2005, 09:37:19 PM »

which squadron was he in?

I know the 475th FG had their squads in this order...

red is 431st squad

yellow 432 squad

blue 433 squad etc

ie 123 red yellow blue

that nose looks blue to me givent he option between red and blue

Waffle · « **Reply #6 on:** September 18, 2005, 09:39:50 PM »

lol - my nights shot..done did got the research bug in me....lmao

Pics coming late..lmao

Waffle · « **Reply #7 on:** September 18, 2005, 09:46:05 PM »

here's another 363rd bird -

Note the tail and the lighter area on the tail, and the clearly darker area on the leading edge of the fin, where a strip might've been - sloppy paint removal, or did the remover also remove the aluminum laquer that covered the fin, allowing the natural metal to collect dirt on the leading edge where it was removed?

Waffle · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2005, 10:17:54 PM »

here's one of the profiles from Squadron/signal's Mustangs Mustangs - the one with the red nose.

Waffle · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2005, 10:37:56 PM »

In response about the radio antenna

From the P51 Erection & Maintenance manual AN 01-60je

Guppy35 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2005, 11:24:54 PM »

No question on the place for the antenna on the 51. It's just that they didn't use that particular radio and antenna on ETO 51s so it wasn't there on them or on Pacific birds

363rd History has numerous photos in it. Not a single P51D with a ID band on the vertical tail including McWherter's Malcom hooded P51B.

The danger in profiles of course. Unless you have photo proof, it's guess your best a lot of the time. And if you look at the 363rd birds, it was the 381st FS with the B3 codes that had the red noses. C3 marked birds should have been yellow at some point, so I don't think I'd take that profile as accurate. The profile of this bird in the Osprey book on the Aces of 9th & 15th AF has it with the black nose, but then gives it the fin fillet of the later D models when this bird didn't have that mod. That and any ID band would have been wider then that.

As for the spots that look like the band has been removed. There is no doubt it was there on delivery but removed. All 51s came marked that way from the Depots. This was done in late April, May 44 as 51s were being jumped with Allied pilots thinking they were 109s. The stripe on the vertical tail was given as a reason for this and it was removed.

Now for McWherters.

He was with the 17th Pursuit Squadron and flew P40s with them out of Java claiming one Japanese plane and one probable before Java fell. He escaped to Australia. He then went to the 35th FG flying P39s with them in New Guiniea before returning to the States in 1943.

Weapons/Drop tank pylons were silver on Natural metal P51Ds btw

Guppy35 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 19, 2005, 12:49:37 AM »

Just a thought based on going through all the photos in the 363rd history. There doesn't appear to be any nose color until after the upper invasion stripes are gone, putting it in the time frame of late of roughly early July at the soonest for the nose color beyond just the theater recognition black nose on natural metal birds and white on OD/Gray birds.

Went through my 1/48th scale Mustang kits and found the decal set I'd bought forever ago with those markings. Note they mention the black ETO ID colors too

Waffle · « **Reply #12 on:** September 19, 2005, 01:01:31 AM »

At one time, McWherters P51B had a White band on it.
363rd's first comabat mission was Feb 24, 1944. If the orders to remove the vert fin band went out on 23 March 44 - I imagine there was some time before it was carried out by ground crew.
So there's a good month of service from their first mission untill the removal of the band. Or, in the case of the photo, the probable overpainting in OD.

Hence this photo:

The natural metal 51Bs and C took on Black theatre bands.

Now what has my curiousity piqued, is by the time the 51Ds started arriving, why would they still be apllying the bands on the vert fin, as there were clear orders for their removal. There's clearly photographic evidence of existing black bands and or their removal on alot of p51ds. One intersting P51 is "Jackie" from the 360FS 356FG, 8AF, which still shows the vert fin band in black, with the rudder being repainted in red.

Also, Dallas Doll still shows the Black ID band...

Waffle · « **Reply #13 on:** September 19, 2005, 01:02:29 AM »

Aeromaster?

Oh yeah - And why does it show he shot down 3 jp planes, if he only bagged one, as per "The 363rd Fighter Group in World War 2", by Schiffer

Guppy35 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 19, 2005, 01:16:20 AM »

Ok back to the bands. They were ordered painted out on the tails of the P51s in late March of 44 because of the previously mentioned problems where other Allied fighters were seeing them as 109s. They figured the lack of band on the vert tail would give the 51 a more distinct profile.

So you would have seen all the 51s prior to this with ID bands on the vert tail hence the clearly overpainted white band on McWherters B model.

All the aircraft coming into England were painted with ETO ID bands and noses at the Depots. There are many a photo of a bird new at the Fighter Groups with this set up prior to group colors going on.

Why they kept doing the tail, I don't know

BUT! You will see many 8th AF natural metal birds with the black vert tail band on well into the fall of 44.

But you will see few, if any on 9th AF fighters. Maybe because they were stationed on the continent. I'm not sure why, but they appear to have not used it at all. A quick run through all my 51 books with 9th AF birds shows just one with it on and thats a Photo Recce F6D. Again there are no photos in the 363rd history showing D models or post March 44 B/C models with a tail ID stripe.

And of course you've got me in research mode too

Trying to find any mention of McWherters in my stuff on the 17th PS as well as the battle in the Phillipines and Java.

No go so far and there a couple of very good books on the subject.

Ah well, always fun being on the hunt