Commercial Pilots i need some advice

[Furball]

I am determined to be a pilot.  The stumbling block for me is the cost.

The cheapest i have seen is in NZ and is here

http://www.flighttraining.co.nz/courses.html

The CPL/MEIR.

Those of you 'in the know' would this be a good way of me getting into the airline industry? how are the costs? (it equates to about £19k or around $30k).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Curval]

It is called The Royal Air Force.

Get on it lad.

[Toad]

Well, if you are determined........

Probably the easiest way to get qualified is via a military program. Your future civil employers accept that the military gave you good training and you were good enough to use that to succeed and win wings. The bonus is the military will actually pay you a decent wage while training/serving/building time and you'll have quality time (complex aircraft time) in your logbook.

The toughest way to get into an airliner seat is the "all civilian" method. You are going to pay for your training and pay dearly. When you get trained, not every potential employer will view your background in the same "standard" way as they would a military trained pilot. The training is in many cases just as good but it's a variable. After you get trained, you're going to have to build at least 1500 hours of time. You will either pay for that too or someone will pay you very poorly while you work for them to get it. The equipment you fly generally won't be high performance/complex stuff, especially for the first several hundred hours.

It can be done though. One of my sons friends just made it the "all civilian" way. He's 27 now and just got a turboprop Captain's job that pays about $50K per year. But there were about 5 years of living on rice and beans and begging friends for a place to sleep.

Good luck!

[Wolfala]

Well,

You are in NZ - isn't anyplace cheaper then training in the US. Save u a few tens of thousands of dollars by doing that. All the ratings I got over the years, when you account the extra hours to qualify for them and training, probally ran me around 40-50k. Formal programs do it for 37k - which are like cookie cutter programs but they get you the hours u need to qualify for Comm, CFI, CFII, etc.

You've prob heard it a thousand times before, but its between the hours 250 and 1500 that is the super*****. But anyway u cut it, its always going to be the least expensive in the US.

Other thing to keep in mind is that if you have Commercial in mind, your options will be more limited gaining cert in NZ then the US. I.e. - less paperwork to file when you have a US License then a NZ to US. Some countries you aren't even allowed to fly in the US - have to check the regs. But bottom line, US is basically the benchmark for airman certs - you can't go wrong.

[Furball]

Originally posted by Curval
It is called The Royal Air Force.

Get on it lad.

eyesight.

thanks for the replies all.

[eagl]

In the US, the low-budget trick is to get your PPL and then hook up with an FBO to fly errands to build hours and experience.  You can do this without a commercial license as long as they only pay expenses.  After you have enough hours, take your commercial test and now start charging a few bucks, and keep building hours.  Get your instrument rating as soon as you can afford the lessons, and now you can fly passengers or whatever cargo will fit into the cheapest plane on the ramp, in any weather.  When you have enough hours, go for your instructor rating and potato yourself out to any flying school or FBO.  Undercut your competitors ruthlessly since you're doing it to build hours, not make money.  Use the money to get a twin engine upgrade.  Turbine is next.

Then comes the big step - find a bigger cargo outfit that will hire you as a second pilot.  You don't get paid, but you get the hours.  They basically give you the keys and a pile of cargo, and point you in the right direction with a kick in the butt.  Expect to sleep in FBOs, eat your meals in the plane, etc. beause the cargo outfits basically need someone who will fly all the time and be able to get cargo from point A to point B in a hurry.  Again, you don't make any actual money doing this, but you can get a whole crapload of multi (and possibly turbine) hours in a fairly short time.

When you have enough hours from your instructing and cargo hauling time, you apply to a real airline and expect to fly a regional turbine or jet until you get a few thousand hours and can apply for an upgrade to something larger.

I know one guy who did all this in about 6 years, from pedestrian to third pilot in a 727 or something like that.  He wasn't married and lived off of ramen noodles and bologna for a few years, but he was making 6 figures after only 8 years.  I don't remember if he had a college degree or not, but it can help when applying.

Doing your research about the company also helps a lot when applying...  If you show up to an interview knowing the names of everyone on the board, what profit or loss the company posted for the last 3-5 years, how many aircraft they operate and where from, what company does their overhauls, etc etc., then it really looks like you're serious about getting the job.

[Debonair]

I considered buying a plane & selling it after I got required time, but didn't have the knowedge &/or confidence to be sure i could do so without getting ripped off.  Looking back, I think I should have done it that way.  An IFR 152 could have saved me a ton of money, even if I'd have sold it for a few thousand less than what I probably would have payed, & I probably would have gone through my training quicker also (I took 14 months to go from 0 time to my commercial checkride).  Also demo flights for selling the plane could have been valuable right seat PIC time.

[crowMAW]

Sooo...what you are saying is you want to be a cheaply trained airline pilot with bad eyesight.  Hmmmm.    LOL

Seriously...good luck Furb.  How bad are your eyes?  Will your military accept corrective surgery or lasik?

Not really sure how the UK Coastguard Agency works (is it a separate branch with independent training as in the US or is it part of the Admiralty). But do they fly fixed wing aircraft or rotory only?  Are their eyesight restrictions any lower or do they allow corrective surgery/lasik?

[Dnil]

I am going through a regional training program right now at the local college.  Normal runs around 40k give or take 5k.  At around 500 hours you can interview for one of the major regionals.  At that point they hire you as an instructor for the flight portion of the school.  Pay sucks, 10 bucks a flight hour but hey its flying.  They place most everyone that they hire as instructors.  Now this is a cookie cutter training place that puts you in a regional but making you a well rounded knowledgeable pilot is not the priority.  I agree with golfer on a lot of points on the cookie cutter places but thats the quick way to get to regionals if that is your thing.

Luckily for me its free so I am getting the ratings and seeing what happens after that.

[cpxxx]

You would probably be better going onto PPRuNE. You will find lots of advice there in the wannabees section and some reality checks.

I assume you're in Britain. So it has to be a JAA licence. A NZ licence is useless except in NZ. Most Kiwis I know have to move abroad to get work. You can train in the USA for a JAA licence, Oxford Air Training School and a few others have a combined effort with flight training in the USA finishing up in the UK.  You can also train in Jerez, Spain for a CAA version of the CPL/IR.

You can do it using the full time route or the modular route. Full time costs megabucks and will take a year or so of your time and leave you with 250 hours or so and a JAA CPL/MULTI/IR and having passed the ATPL exams. The modular route is simply that. You do a module of training, PPL, CPL and multi IR and hour build the rest, preferably in the USA where the flying is cheaper. But, beware there are lots of restrictions with the TSA these days. And you won't get work in the USA anymore without a green card.

The modular route is best for saving money. You can continue to work while training if you wish but your employer will have to be generous with time off.


The money issue effects us all. I hate to think how much I've spent at this stage. Soon I hope to be earning some of it back. I have a job offer as an Instructor on the table pending my completion of the course.  Becoming an Instructor used to be the standard way to build time while waiting for the big job. That is still true but often airlines recruit low time pilots out of training schools.  

You simply have to bite the bullet on cost. If you have a house remortgage it. If not make a good case to a bank manager. There are career development loans available in the UK but amounts to about 8K only. HSBC bank used to give loans for pilot training courses.  

The cost doesn't end with the training, a lot of airlines look for money up front for type training. Ryanair for one. Others don't take money off you but deduct it from your pay. You must sign a bond to repay the money.  So you may have to find 25k plus to get the job.  

Quite honestly there is no cheap way to get into the airlines anymore. Before the JAA, it was easier and cheaper because you could do the bulk of the training in the USA and simply convert back in Europe. But the JAA made everything more expensive and complicated.

Check out PPRuNE, there is lots of info there. If you are not flying now get out there and start with a few lessons and get to know the scene. Hanging out with other pilots is a good way of getting a feel for what's required.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

If your obstacle is the cost, how are u going to make it between the 350h "I'm done with flight school" to 1500h/200 twin "I'm one of the lucky few, I just got  a job that pays $3000/month."?

Finding the moneynfor my instruction was the easy part, living 3 years with $1500/month was the problem.

[Dnil]

hey french....hows it working in Hobby?

[Furball]

Thank you all, only just had the chance to read all the replies properly.

[Golfer]

Keep in mind the airlines aren't for everyone, but they're perfect for others.  There are a lot of things to do with aviation and I'm having a ball.  I had almost 800 hours before I got my CFIs and that was because I wanted to, not because I was required to.  I fly for a company now FAA Reg part 91 which means that the airplane is not for hire, and its used for business/personal flying not as a means of revenue like an airline.

I soon will be moving to a FAA Reg part 135 outfit which uses their aircraft to make money by chartering to them to people 'on demand' meaning there is no set schedule other than days on/days off duty for me.

I've had a few interviews and a couple job offers from airlines.  2 regionals and one cargo.  Offered jobs at the cargo and one regional, not offered at the other regional because I don't have my ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) written test done.  One regional had upcoming turmoil with its mainline partner (i.e. ComAir/Delta, or American Eagle/American Airlines) and I chose not to accept the position because of the doom and gloom on the horizon.  Turns out the class they offered was cancelled and I'd be out of a job before I even started.  Welcome to the airlines!

I passed on the cargo even though a good friend is there now because the pilot group had more than a few cowboys and I wouldn't want paired with them in the future if they felt the need to fly into a level-higher-than-zero thunderstorm just to get some boxes from A to B.  They're still a good company and I can't say anything bad about the Chief Pilot and many pilots, but it just wasn't for me.

There is a lot out there to be done and I've flown traffic watch, towed banners, flew jumpers, shuttled executives, flown aerobatics, flown a couple warbirds, landed in other countries, moved boxes as well as trained private, instrument, commercial, multi-engine students and add-on instructors that have passed their checkrides.

Find something for you and follow the dream whatever it may be.  The only people who don't get what they want are the ones that give up...don't be them!

[beet1e]

furball!  

I've met you, and as you're here in Britain I thought I'd add to your thread, as much of the advice - although useful - is coming from overseas, where the situation can be very different.

I was around a lot of instructor/hours-builder types in the late 80s. I went from gliding to SLMG to PPL Group A - the latter occurring in 1988, supposedly a boom time for aspiring commercial pilots.

My advice - see your AME to make sure your eyesight is going to be good enough BEFORE you start laying out ££££ in training fees. Your eyesight needs to be correctable within certain CAA prescribed limits. That is to say that you might be able to see perfectly well, but it's no good if to do that you have to wear a pair of Mr. Magoo spectacles.

Now, what a lot of these Yankee boys here don't realise is that there's a mountain of difference between the CAA Instrument Rating and the FAA equivalent. My information may not be bang up to date, but read on: In the US there are ~300,000 pilots, around half of whom have an Instrument Rating. That's a very high proportion considering that the weather over there is generally much better than it is here.

Do you know how many new Instrument Ratings were by the CAA issued in 1992? It was about 30 - that's quantity thirty, just in case anyone thought that was a typo. The reason is that the British IR is very much the preserve of airline/commercial pilots. The syllabus is long and tedious, and includes an incredible amount of extraneous bullshirt™ - stuff about wet bulb thermometers and dry bulb thermometers... In one exam paper, I was told that the candidate was asked to write the chemical formula for de-icing fluid. WTF?!

For this reason, many IR candidates flunk out. The CFI of White Waltham in 1988 was one of them. He conducted my GFT, and yet despite his obvious commitment to aviation did not complete the IR. Same thing applied to a French born instructor I knew - wanted to be a commercial pilot, couldn't hack the IR.

This is also why many British pilots gain an IR in the US. But whereas an American pilot with an FAA IR can fly a G-reg plane, a British pilot with the same qualification may not! That's one of the reasons you'll see many N-reg aircraft around at the toff airfields around London. Places like Elstree.

So - in addition to the eyesight thing, you really need to check out the CAA IR syllabus/cost. Even back in the 80s/90s, some guys were spending £30K to achieve it. You need to know whether you have the mettle (and the wonga) to see it through.

I'm afraid I don't have many success stories to regale you with, but a good number of expensive disappointments. One success story I did hear was of a young lad - even younger than you (LOL) who got hired by Monarch Airlines based at Luton. The entry requirements were his PPL, and the fact that he had done LESS THAN 100 hours. If he had gone over the 100 hours he would have been disqualified. Monarch took the view that a pilot with 100+ hours experience would have picked up "bad habits" that would be difficult to train out of him.

[beet1esque anecdotal tale]

A few months after I heard this, I had transported our TB10 from Cranfield to Stapleford to have some avionics work done on it. I had to get back to Cranfield to get my car, and as luck would have it there was someone in the Stapleford clubhouse who was headed that way. He turned out to be a CAA man, who was just about to get his commercial licence. On the way to Cranfield in his car, I told him about the Monarch pilot who was hired, and asked what were these "bad habits" one might pick up with 100+ hours...

The first thing he came up with was fuel loading - the fact that as PPL numpties we tended to fly with full tanks, as opposed to using the black art of calculating the fuel required - that, apparently, was one of the things that would be learned in commercial training. I didn't bother to get into the discussion about flying with plenty of fuel because the destination might not have any, or that someone might have walked off with the pump key in his back pocket. It happens...

Well, shortly after this, I read of the plight of two commercial pilots who had been practising their newly found fuel requirement computation skills immediately prior to a flight in a Cessna registration G-BIRO from France to Lydd Airport in Kent. I don't know what they did wrong, but they never made it. Having run out of fuel over the Channel, they were forced to ditch on the mud flats off the Kent coast. I larfed my arse off!