Author Topic: shooting myself in the foot? (Read 849 times)

eagl · « **on:** September 23, 2005, 03:18:58 PM »

I forgot how hot those old thoroughbred athlon XPs really were...

I had ditched an athlon XP 1.4ghz in favor of an XP 2000+, and found that the 2000+ was a bit cooler even though it ran faster. After swapping it out for my A64 though, I'd forgotten all about how hot it used to run.

I'm currently building up a winxp media edition media box, and I'm using my Athlon XP 2000+ as a the basis. First off though, I could barely fit it into the old steel case I had available. It's a super high quality copper heatsink popular for overclocking and uses an 80mm fan, but it's within 1/4 inch of the power supply and the fan had to be installed after the mobo was installed due to clearance problems. Tight fit.

I switched from an older, noisy fan to a new ball bearing, thermally controlled 80mm fan, because I had forgotten how hot these run... Now the fan is running at about 2700 rpm and the cpu is well over 50C. I hope it remains stable so I don't have to swap out the fan to something unsuitable for a media box. The heatsink is too hot to touch so I know I have a good contact between the heatsink and the cpu...

The other part I'm a bit concerned with is that due to having some trouble getting all the pieces together, I'm going to install win XP media center edition without having all the media components installed. For example, the microsoft remote won't be installed, and the winPVR video capture card won't be installed initially. I'll also have to install an add-on USB 2.0 card later since the mobo is a bit old and only supports USB 1.x. I'm hoping that if I get a stable windows installation with most of the hardware installed (vid card, sound card, networking, etc), then adding in the capture card, usb, and remote later on won't be too difficult.

Anyhow, I'm at 53% of a long NTFS format on the new 300 gig hard drive and I figure I only have another hour before the format is complete. I hope I haven't put the cart before the horse here...

Here's a nearly complete parts list. You guys can let me know if I've boofed anything.

ABIT KR7A RAID mobo, not using RAID though.
Athlon XP 2000+ cpu at 1667 mhz
512 meg PC2100 DDR SDRAM
Nvidia GeForce 4 4200 128 meg
Generic "good" pci sound card with all sorts of inputs and outputs, optical and copper digital spdif in/out, etc.
802.11B wireless NIC so I can put it next to the tv without running wires
generic 10/100 realtek network card that I'll remove once the installation is complete
WinXP Media Center Edition
Sony DRU-510A DVD recorder
Generic CDRW drive
300 gig Maxtor diamondmax 10 ultra ATA
floppy

To be installed later:
Generic USB 2.0 controller
hauppage winTV (winpvr 200?)
Microsoft remote

I'll probably remove the realtek 10/100 nic because I need the pci slot for the usb controller and don't plan on running network wiring to the tv.

Did I miss anything? It won't do HDTV (damnit) but the vid card does have digital output so I hope it looks ok on my plasma screen.

eagl · « **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2005, 03:36:29 PM »

Well, it crashed at 62% of the format. Back to the drawing board.

I'm underclocking the cpu to XP1900+ speeds and undervolting to 1.5v. Maybe that will help.

At the time of the crash, cpu temp was over 56C measured from underneath the cpu.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2005, 04:04:03 PM »

That's a bit warm. Probably overheating surrounding components, which caused the crash.

eagl · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2005, 04:19:17 PM »

I don't even have the case cover put onto the chassis... It's open on both sides and the top.

After lowering the multiplier to 12 from 12.5 and dropping the voltage to 1.5v from 1.6v, temps in bios dropped from 56C to 52C. Hopefully that will be enough. I'm not sure what will happen when I put the case lid back on though... I really don't want to have to mod the case with a blowhole just to get it to run. It's a pretty old steel case from back when a 300 mhz P2 was the best thing on the street, so it's not exactly designed for a large thermal load. It was considered an enthusiast case back then and there is room for an 80mm intake fan and some cooling holes on the back, but the PSU is too close to the top of the cpu heatsink and there is no way to improve airflow around the cpu without a serious casemod effort.

Keeping the entire system quiet is important if it's going to be a media center box. I have a quiet hard drive cooler installed so that isn't a problem, but now I'm concerned that it may not run at all without additional cooling and that gets noisy.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2005, 04:28:12 PM »

eagl, is there enough room for a 'dead air' fan? Such as the Zalman fan kit with the bracket for mounting a fan (92mm or 80mm) internal to the case.

Thos kits are extremely quiet and do a remarkable job.

eagl · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2005, 04:36:38 PM »

There isn't really any room. There may be room for one of those small radio shack squirrel cage fans at the top, but all the pci slots are filled so there is no room for a slot fan. There is a little clearance at the top of the case but no air outlet so I'd have to cut a hole in the top of the case. I have a dremel tool but making a nice looking round hole would take a very long time with the tools I have.

Mostly the noise of extra fans is what I'm concerned about. I think I'd rather underclock the cpu than add more fans. If noise wasn't a concern, I'd put in a higher flow 80mm fan on the cpu and accept the high case temps but I can't go hiding a hoover behind the tv and expect the wife to not notice.

The athlon XP 1900 came stock with 1.5v so if it's stable at that speed and voltage, then I'll just leave it. I will add in a quiet 80mm intake fan but that only blows air at the pci cards so it won't help cpu temps much. If it lets the system run stable though, I'll be happy. Hopefully I won't be pushing 100% cpu load most of the time and that should help a bit.

edit - 66% and counting on the HD format. Another 45 min...

Skuzzy · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2005, 04:45:58 PM »

No, no, the purpose of the 'dead air' fan is just to move air around in the case. Not move air into or out of the case.

I use one in my system and it cooled my RAM, Northbridge, and back of the video card by almost 15 degrees across the board.

The bracket mounts on top of the PCI brackets where they attach to the back of the case and then it is bent to where it will go over the top of the PCI cards. A single mount point for the fan attaches the fan at the end of the bracket and it can pivot around on that mount.
It is a very low volume fan. You cannot here it from the outside of the case.

A picture is worth a billion babbles.

eagl · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2005, 04:58:35 PM »

Yea, that might fit. The bottom of the case is actually pretty open. I could probably even fit a water cooling setup in there without any trouble. Did I mention that this was a budget operation?

The only new components for this were the cheapo sound card, the vid capture card, and the hard drive. Everything else is from my spare parts closet. If I was doing this "right", I'd have an HTPC case that matched my stereo, at the very least a new NF7-S mobo (refurb $40ish online), and the build would go from there.

If I was doing it RIGHT, I'd have an HTPC case, a microATX A64 mobo with A64 X2 3800 cpu, a huge heatsink with a slow 92mm fan on top, etc. I just don't feel like spending the money. Wasting my time whacking away at the old gear can be rewarding if I can get it to work in the end...

To get a $9 fan from newegg costs an additional $16 shipping due to my location. The 80mm intake fan option I already have will blow pretty much right on the same spot that the dead-air cooler you linked would blow, but from the front of the case instead of right on top of the pci cards. I've tied up the excess cables to help airflow too.

It's an old inwin case. Sort of a short/wide mini tower.

The first test is to get windows to install with the case lid off. After I can get it installed and some temperature monitoring utilities installed, I'll put the lid back on and see what's going on. There is a secondary temp probe near the pci slots so I should be able to get a decent picture as to whether I'm doomed or not, depending on how hot the mobo probe temp gets compared to the cpu temp.

80% formatted and counting.

eagl · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2005, 05:01:37 PM »

I did figure out one thing I was forgetting... Any buildup goes much smoother when drinking the elixir of life, mtn dew. Code red tastes better but doesn't have the mystical properties of the original dew. I'm opening a 20oz bottle now and I expect smooth sailing from here on.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2005, 05:07:34 PM »

Always have to have your favorite 'builder beverage' at hand. Failure to comply means certain doom when the switch is hit.

eagl · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2005, 05:27:51 PM »

The format finished, but it hung at "checking disk size". I put a fan sitting right on top of the heatsink blowing across it, and I'll try again with a quick format this time.

eagl · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2005, 07:17:56 PM »

Update

Windows installed ok but it crashes if I remove the extra 80mm fan sitting on top of the open case blowing onto the side of the heatsink.

I'm not sure what I want to do about it. A casemod or total case swap is probably going to be required. I may try to construct a duct from some of the existing vents, put in a fan, and duct the fan across the heatsink. Not sure if I want it to blow in or suck out... I'll get better cpu cooling by blowing in cool air and that would overpressurize the case which should help exhaust hot air through all the other vent holes, but it's not elegant. The cpu overheating is definately the problem. It locks up tight at around 117-120F.

eagl · « **Reply #12 on:** September 24, 2005, 05:37:46 AM »

Update

I tried reversing the cpu fan and it seems to help a LOT. Temps are down over 15F and the heatsink is still pretty warm but not too hot to touch.

I think the proximity of the fan to the power supply was making it so that the fan is unable to blow air over the heatsink. But when reversing it, case air is drawn through the heatsink and blown into the PSU, and then the PSU fan ejects it out of the case.

Of course, once I do that and see the temps falling, the computer immediately becomes less stable for no reason. I'd already run it overnight with prime95 and memtest, but I figured I'd go with memtest again and sure enough, it looks like one of my 2 sticks of ram is failing...

It's only pc2100 but nobody even sells that stuff anymore, and it's well beyond the original 1 year warranty. 256 meg DDR is just a bit low for an HTPC box I think. I'll give it a shot but I may be doomed.

If necessary, I'll up the memory voltage and see if it runs ok at a higher vdimm. Crucial memory is usually rated at 1.8v and I think it defaults to somewhat lower than that, so maybe I'll get lucky.

whels · « **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2005, 07:30:48 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by eagl
Update

It's only pc2100 but nobody even sells that stuff anymore, and it's well beyond the original 1 year warranty. 256 meg DDR is just a bit low for an HTPC box I think. I'll give it a shot but I may be doomed.

If necessary, I'll up the memory voltage and see if it runs ok at a higher vdimm. Crucial memory is usually rated at 1.8v and I think it defaults to somewhat lower than that, so maybe I'll get lucky.

PC2100 ddr ram @ newegg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Manufactory=&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=524%3A7861&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&description=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=&SubCategory=147&Submit=Property

whels

eagl · « **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2005, 10:16:02 AM »

Yea, 256 meg sticks of DDR are under $20 at newegg, but the point was pretty much to reuse older parts to make an htpc sort of media computer.

The computer simply won't pass memtest test 5 on either stick. I've reduced memory timings, reduced FSB, messed with voltages, tried using different memory slots, and nothing has worked. Running prime95 now results in the computer locking up with a blank screen after about half an hour.

Any more money into this is just throwing good money after bad. I'll reuse the hard drive and the fans, but I just don't know which parts are good or not. It's possible that the video card could be causing the windows crashes completely independently of the memory or cpu, or maybe it's just the mobo that is bad. I have no idea and I'm not going to throw money at this thing to figure it out.

Damn shame... I have all the parts for a nice HTPC but I can't get the basic computer stable.