Author Topic: First steps in Afganistan  (Read 1053 times)

Offline popeye

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First steps in Afganistan
« on: September 21, 2001, 11:32:00 AM »
Massive, and well publicized, humanitarian aid for the refugees who have left Afganistan.

Provide "our side of the story" to the Afgan people.  Maybe a leaflet drop?  There is very little outside information available to the Afgan people.  Television is banned.  The press is controlled by the Taliban.  We need to be clear that our fight is with terrorists and governments that protect terrorists -- not the innocent people caught in the middle. There is a lot of discontent with the Taliban within Afganistan. We need to encourage and exploit that discontent to undermine popular support of the Taliban, before any military strikes, which will have exactly the opposite effect.
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Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2001, 11:56:00 AM »
If the civilians know that we will be coming in, same with the rebels, and they rise up and begin dissention before our troops step foot on their soil- they will more than likely be killed one by one.

It might be best that they don't know we're coming until we are already there because it could lead to massive loss of innocent lives.

Just my 2cents of course.
-SW

Offline newguy2

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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2001, 02:13:00 AM »
Hey pop, you old fart. Any idea who I am? You should know.  ;)

Offline Nash

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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2001, 05:08:00 AM »
This is one of the most brilliant things I've read on this whole... god... this whole horrible episode.

Last Tuesday's effect on me personally has caught me completely off guard. I've been a hair's trigger away from completely breaking down in public (and anywhere else) just from the sheer callousness of this violation, the scale of this massacre, the pictures of people accepting their fate and jumping out of the WTC in a last act of defiance, the phone calls home from those on the flights. It is saddening beyond any words I can muster. Horrifying.

Hell... I'm expressing this on a flight sim BBS of all things... Unbelievable. It is just very saddening.

When I got dumped off curbside from La Guardia to the upper East Side Manhattan YMCA via some fierce cab ride, all my belongings packed into 3 boxes, hmm... 6 years ago or so... I was just a Canadian kid who got invited to a very cool school there... and I was full of, erhm... a bit of second guessing (to put it mildly). I busted off a 3 year relationship, sold my car and everything else I had but for 3 boxes worth, and went for it. I was given the standard warnings about life in NYC (you can imagine)... and my 1st few months there surely lived up to those warnings.

I stayed in a hotel on St Marks and came "home" one day to find the place covered in yellow police tape... A murder had taken place in the room next to mine. My room had no sheets on a bed full of cig burns, and there were cockroaches everywhere. Each morning on my way to school I'd pass 55 dollars to the "landlord" through this bank-like Plexiglass turnstile apparatus. It was insane.

But soon enough I got my own place, got an internship while in school then got hired right out of school. Worked there for a few years at great firm and made some fantastic friends.

What quickly became apparent to me is that New Yorkers are unlike any other people. They may seem a bit hostile, initially, but that's not actually the case. They are vital. They don't wake up to meet the day - they wake up to *challenge* it. And within, they are some of the warmest, most caring and passionate people I have ever met.

It is utterly devastating what has happened. On so many levels.

I attended three different lectures given by architects on the WTC... They were amazing buildings. In Canada I used to see them in movies, or in the opening scenes from NYPD Blue. In New York they became the backdrop of my walk to work. And now they are... simply... no more. Is that heinous? Yes... but it pales in comparison to seeing a couple step off one of the ledges, hand in hand, to certain death. I cannot fathom what was going through their minds...

My hurt is only now starting to turn into anger. Inevitable. And I want the !#$##'s to pay for this, and hard. I mean really... if it takes a decade, if it is taxing to the extreme, I don't care... I am prepared to hold up my end of the bargain, for as long as it may take for the folks in the services to hold up theirs. If resolve falters, just one look at a picture of some poor woman falling head first to her death from 80 floors will be enough to keep that in check.

I am by no means yer typical hawk-like person, not eager to war. Yet I am seething... and want revenge *now*...

But gosh... Popeye's idea... It is one of those things where it's so brilliant that it should be easy to spot... yet it rarely is. Look at what's happened... In the wake of this thing, Israel and Palestine seem to have made good on a cease-fire, Pakistan has come out supporting the US and asking that the Taliban give up bin Laden, the United Arab Emirates have now come out cutting ties with Afghanistan and the Taliban, and the overwhelming majority of Middle Eastern countries have expressed condemnation of this attack.

It's kinda funny... but 2 weeks ago the big news was of a ship with Afghanistan people seeking refuge in Australia... after being denied it both there and other countries. Who now would refuse them? We didn't know who the Taliban were two weeks ago... But now we've seen plenty... videos of women getting their heads shot off in soccer stadiums for chrissakes. Christ, I'd put them up in my apartment if it there's no place elsewhere... What they are trying to leave behind erhm... who could blame em?

Today also marked the first time that porn got eclipsed on the search engines. It's amazing how much the world can change in a day.  :)

But here we are.

Aw dammit I'm rambling like mad...

The gist is... what if the 1st strike in this war was purely humanitarian? What if it was not about "infinite justice", but instead offered some hope to Afghans - who may want bin Laden and his goons eradicated as much as you and I? bin Laden's days are numbered, most of his Allies are now shutting him out. Divide an conquer...

An epiphany I had today was when thinking about Dresden, or the bombing of London and Berlin. It was basically policy: hit civilians and crush their will to fight. Well... it finally happened on our side of the pond. Do any of you feel like laying down your weapons? Would you rather surrender now that risk seeing more of this?

Not at all... We all now finally *know* just how flawed this is. So what if...  man could you imagine turning on the news and seeing a report on how the armed forces have begun their campaign... camera cuts to massive air drops of food and supplies for the oppressed peoples of Afghanistan who've suffered greatly under the Taliban regime? The look on bin Laden's face when he realizes he has lost...

Totally naive... yeah... but at the very least it's an interesting idea.

Offline Fury

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First steps in Afganistan
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2001, 06:47:00 AM »
I think direct or indirect stepped up humanitarian aid around the boarders would be a good idea.

Offline popeye

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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2001, 07:24:00 AM »
Hiya newgy2.  Howzit going?  When you gonna buy some glasses and come fly with us again?   ;)
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

Offline Mark Luper

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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2001, 07:33:00 AM »
That was an awsome post Nash. <S>!

MarkAT

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »
Test question:

What nation was the largest donor of Humanitarian aid to Afghanistan prior to September 11, 2001?
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Don't all answer at once and out loud...
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OK, you're all correct. It was the mean old bastige infidel USA once again.

Not that I don't think this isn't a good idea. It is.

However, to think it's going to make any real difference is truly unsupported speculation, bordering on the most wishful of all thinking.

After all, mean old Uncle Sam is ALREADY doing more for them in their time of famine than anyone else. No wonder they hate him.
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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2001, 08:12:00 AM »
I was wondering when someone would mention the old 'let the people rise up against...' argument.

Well, ask the Kurds in Northern Iraq about predominantly US encouragement for revolt. I think they've been given the 'donkey and carrot' treatment 3 or 4 times since Saddam has been in the saddle. For some reason, after the Kurds rise up and attack, the promise of support evaporates and the Kurds are left exposed - much massacre follows swiftly.

Anyway, if you happen to be Afghani and are trying to flee the country, you can forget it. All borders are now closed. What supplies of food donated in aid there is in Afghanistan are verging on collapse.

If you are an Afghan man, the only way your life could get any worse, is if you suddenly discovered you are in fact a woman. If you're a woman...

Toad - why do you think the US is hated so much in those areas of the world? Do me a favour and square these ideas together:

a) 50% of the world's population would like a US green card.

b) Much of the world outside the Western democracies despises the US.

I'd like to know your opinion on this.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2001, 08:34:00 AM »
I don't think pamplets describing our actions would work for the simple fact that they would not believe them.

Would you believe something from the "Great Satan" if, for your entire life, you have been taught to hate them?

The $5,000,000 reward for Obin Ladan on the matchbook campaign didn't seem to stir any of them to action...
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2001, 08:43:00 AM »
the USA gives $170 million a year in food aid to afganistan.

so much for the "do good and they will love you" idea

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2001, 08:56:00 AM »
You do realise that Afghanistan is not a democracy john9001?

The people didn't chose the Taliban as leaders - they don't represent them. They don't possess ability to 'love' anyone who helps them - they have no access to independent media to form a balanced opinion.

The regime in Afghanistan is hated by the people, which is demonstrated by the 3 million Afghani refugees in Pakistan. And the thousands more who try to escape every week.

I know its easier just to see Afghanistan as one big enemy, full of people who have achieved some consensus that the US is evil. But that simply isn't true and it is the reason why the job of getting at Bin Laden is going to be very complicated.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline weazel

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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2001, 09:33:00 AM »
The 'winning of hearts and minds' didn't work for us in Vietnam.

This isn't the time to try it again, we need to kick their bellybutton before we worry about rebuilding them.

Offline LtHans

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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2001, 08:49:00 PM »
But at the same time, why are thousands of people protesting the USA and burning our flag and efigies of President Bush in Pakistan?  

The Taliban DOES have alot of supporters.  In the end I do think there will be a full war with the Taliban....and it is the Taliban's fault and they'll deserve it.

Hans.

Offline Snoopi

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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2001, 10:54:00 PM »
War in Afghanistan......

Hmmm let's ask people who have been there... http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000075191sep19.story