Author Topic: Late war RAF Spit/Seafire landmarks  (Read 2237 times)

Offline Squire

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« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2005, 07:45:41 PM »
Dug up my book, I found that it said "1st Spitfire kill of Me 262"...but thats likely the same thing. I dont think the RAF claimed a 262 prior to that date with another type.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2005, 11:46:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
I don't know what your problem is, and I don't care. However, he asked if what he posted was 'accurate'. I thought he might really mean what he asked and I gave an 'accurate answer'.

I did this to show him that things aren't as simple as a yes / no answer with most of the points listed. I said as much in my previous reply.

I didn't 'jump' on anything. I never mentioned the Luftwaffe, or 109s, or 190s.

I am not a member of any 'contingent', my words are my own. I certainly don't need to relax any more then I am now.

I suggest you take your own advice.


Fair enough Bruno.  It's fair to say I jumped the gun.  My apologies for jumping on your post.  I've been a bit short on the temper lately for reasons nothing to do with AH and it wasn't fair to jump you.  It was wrong of me to do it.

As for the Meteor.  I was lucky enough to get to know a former B of B vet pilot who was with 616 when they transitioned to Meteors in the summer of 44.  He also had a chance to fly a 262 when he ferried one from Fassberg to Lubeck at the end of the war, so his comparisons to the Meteor were interesting to read.

"Dixie" Deans was the 616 pilot who tipped the V-1 with the wing tip of his Meteor sometime in July of 44.  Don't have the date in front of me.
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2005, 12:05:59 AM »
Quote
My apologies for jumping on your post. I've been a bit short on the temper lately for reasons nothing to do with AH and it wasn't fair to jump you. It was wrong of me to do it.


NP, I hope all is well or getting better for you...

Quote
616 when they transitioned to Meteors in the summer of 44. He also had a chance to fly a 262 when he ferried one from Fassberg to Lubeck at the end of the war, so his comparisons to the Meteor were interesting to read.


If you ever get the time I would be interested in hearing what he had to say. I am sure a lot of these other guys would be interested as well.

Regards...

Offline OttoJespersen

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« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2005, 01:34:15 AM »
One 262 was shot down near Brussels on 28 August 1944 by a pair of USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2005, 02:13:14 AM »
A p51C of 65. sqn RAF shot down a 262 air-to air either in 1944 late or 1945. Does any of you guys have info on that?
The 262 tried to dogfight the P51 and the results were a quick death.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2005, 02:56:32 AM »
First claim of an Me262 by USAAF fighters was by P47s of the 78th Fighter Group on August 29, 1944 when Major Joe Myers and Lt. Manford Croy shared in the destruction of a 262.
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2005, 08:44:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by OttoJespersen
One 262 was shot down near Brussels on 28 August 1944 by a pair of USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts.


78th FG records show that Maj. Joseph Myers and Capt. Manford O. Croy shared a kill of a 262 on August 28, 1944.
 
Carter & Mueller documents the first victory over a 262 as being credited to Lt. Valmore J. Beaudreault of the 365th Fighter Group flying a P-47D-27 on October 2, 1944 just west of Munster. Oddly enough, this was a case of two P-47s evading repeated attacks by a 262 and then pursuing it until its engines quit. Before either P-47 was close enough to shoot, the 262 crash-landed of its own volition. Beaudreault, being the closest of the pursuers, received the victory credit.

Here's where history gets very strange. BOTH 262s were piloted by the same Luftwaffe pilot!!!

From the 78th FG website:

"The German pilot of the Me262 downed on 28 August, 1944, and the pilot of the Me262 downed on 2 October, 1944( credited to P-47 pilots of the 365th Fighter Group(9th Air Force) near Munster ) was the same pilot, Ofw Rony Lauer. I have been corresponding with him since 1996.

He had just completed his sixth bombing mission in a Me262 on 28 August, 1944; returned to his base at Juvincourt, France, when he was ordered to fly to another base at Chieves, Belgium( Patton's Third Army was advancing in the area ). After becoming airborne, his main landing gear failed to retract fully( he used the compressed air supply for the previous landing). This drastically affected his cruising speed and potential top speed. P-47s from the 78th intercepted him at 500 feet and since he was unable to outrun or outmaneuver them, he chose to crash land near the village of Haaltert, about 10 miles northwest of Brussels. Major Joe Myers hit the Me262 as it touched down and it began burning immediately. Lauer jumped out of the cockpit as it slid to a stop and ran away from the burning aircraft. Lt. M. Croy fired at him as he ran across the field and Lauer dropped to the ground. A German salvage platoon picked him up with his aircraft that night, then drove him to his new base at Volkel, Holland the next day. He survived without injury

On October 2, 1944, he intercepted two P-47s of the 365th Fighter Group( 9th Air Force ) at 9,000 feet and played a "game of tag" with superior speed down to 500 feet, when one engine began trailing white smoke. Then both engines quit. Once again, he had to make a crash landing, this time without power. He was severely injured in the crash and spent two months in the hospital and rehabilitation. The P-47s of the 365th never fired a shot, but were credited with the victory.

Lauer later returned to his unit, KG51, and flew until the end of the war. His letters express little affection for the Me262, which was questionable for it's combat role. As a multi-engine pilot, he greatly admired the Ju88., which he had flown in the Mediterranean theater 1942-1943. It was fast, maneuverable, reliable and could be used in a variety of roles. He also regretted to have to give up his Ju88 crew( 3 men) when he was transferred to flying Me262s on July 21, 1944. The Me262 was noted for a variety of problem: high fuel consumption, inability to accelerate suddenly on takeoff or landing, engine flame outs, turbine blade failures and landing gear failures on grass fields.

Lauer's military history was typical of other German pilots. He was called to service in 1938, after basic training, received training as an engine mechanic and assigned. In the summer of 1939 he was approved for pilot training and completed flight school in 1940. He then trained in instrument and night flying plus operational training in the He111, Ju52 and Do17. As a pilot he flew radio operator trainees for almost one year. In 1941, he was assigned to Konigsberg on the Baltic to fly Ju86 transports to and from the Russian front. In the winter of 1942, he transferred to Ju88 bombers, flying out of Italy against Mdeitterranean shipping, the Allied invasion and occasionally to England in 1943. He was transferred to the Me262 program in the Spring of 1944 and flew out of various bases in France, Belgium, Holland and Germany.

Upon returning to civilian life, he had difficulty in finding work. Discrimination against former military personnel was common after the war in Germany. He finally found employment with the National Railway and became an engine operator throughout central and northern Germany for many years. He is now retired and lives in Kirchain, approximately 40 miles north of Frankfurt. "

In his book, " Eagles of Duxford "(5), Garry L. Fry writes of the August 28, 1944 encounter :

"Working their way north around the fringes of Brussels, Major Joseph Myers, 82nd " Surtax" Blue Leader, was providing top cover for the Group. At 1915 hours near Tormonde, Belgium flying at 11,000 feet, he saw what he thought was a B-26 going South very fast and very low. Joe dove at 45 degrees registering 450 mph and got right above the bogie at 5,000 feet noting that it was painted slate blue with no markings. The bogie began doing wide ninety degree evasive turns as Myers cut him off from above, right astern, in his 450 mph dive to 2,000 feet. Closing to within 800 yards, it became apparent the stranger was not a B-26. Myers recalled a similarity between the aircraft and Me262 recognition plates.

As he prepared to fire from 500 yards astern, the jet slowed and crash landed in a plowed field. Myers started shooting as it touched the ground and continued pumping strikes into it down to 100 yards getting hits in the cockpit and both engines. The German jet skidded over the field, stopped and caught fire. The pilot, Oberfeldwebel Hieronymous Lauer of the unit Kommando Schenk, jumped out and ran as the rest of "Surtax" Blue Flight came in strafing. In his strafing run, Lieutenant Manford Croy, hit the pilot as he ran away from the jet. The Messerschmitt had been transferring from Juvincourt, near Reims, France to a base at Chievres, Belgium when the encounter took place. "

So, no matter which is correct, the USAAF records or the 78th's records, poor old hard-luck Lauer certainly flew the first Luftwaffe 262 credited to USAAF fighters.

Sometimes truth is, indeed, stranger than fiction.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 08:54:37 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2005, 10:29:50 AM »
Oberfeldwebel Hiëronymus 'Rony' Lauer had an interesting career in the LW.

He joined KG 30 in '42, flying Ju-88s. In June '44 he transferred to 1./KG51 for training on the 262.

On 28 Aug '44 he was flying 262 A-2 9K+GL with I./KG(J)51 on a bombing mission as Widewing states above.

Nicolas Trudgian has done a print of the 7 Mar '44 raid on the Remagen bridge (Clash over Remagen). Tempests of 274 Sqn made a head-on run at the 262s and helped break up the attack. I don't believe any kills were claimed on either side on this date.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2005, 11:21:40 AM »
Some Arado's were launched at the Remagen bridge as well. I think they were engaged by Tempests, but not sure how it went.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2005, 11:47:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Oberfeldwebel Hiëronymus 'Rony' Lauer had an interesting career in the LW.

He joined KG 30 in '42, flying Ju-88s. In June '44 he transferred to 1./KG51 for training on the 262.

On 28 Aug '44 he was flying 262 A-2 9K+GL with I./KG(J)51 on a bombing mission as Widewing states above.

Nicolas Trudgian has done a print of the 7 Mar '44 raid on the Remagen bridge (Clash over Remagen). Tempests of 274 Sqn made a head-on run at the 262s and helped break up the attack. I don't believe any kills were claimed on either side on this date.


My father crossed at Remagen on March 14, his unit in support of the 311th Infantry Regiment of the 78th INF Div. Stuck at mid-span on the south pontoon bridge in traffic, he saw his first jet. In his words:

"We were bumper to bumper, with our truck towing a 105 (howitzer). All of a sudden, every gun along the river to our left (north) opens up and I see a plane coming down the river real fast. Tracers were coming from everywhere at once. I was already up in the gun ring (his truck was fitted with an M2HB MG) and began shooting at it too. It was moving faster than anything I had ever seen before. Then, it pulled up bit and dropped two bombs. I watch them pass right over our truck and explode in the river. Two huge splashes of water soaked us with ice cold water (their truck had a canvas roof that was open). I could hear the roar of the engines as the jet raced away, right down on the river. I kept firing at it until it was far out of range. That was the first jet I ever saw. The plane made a left turn and I saw several other planes chasing it. The driver, Sgt. Bob Wilde, emptied his carbine at it, which had us all in a fit of hysterics. It was nervous laughing though, because we all had the crap scared out of us."

This, I believe was an attack by a Ar 234 of KG76.


(Edit: I found this....)

On March 14, the weather cleared up and an afternoon mission was launched. 11 Ar-234-Bs from 6./KG 76 attacked the newly constructed pontoon bridge south of the Ludendorf bridge. Swarms of American P-51s & P-47s pounced on the jets. Four were shot down.


My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 12:01:36 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Angus

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« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2005, 11:55:51 AM »
Wow, cool!!!
I presume it was a 262 Jabo or was it an Arado?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2005, 12:08:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Wow, cool!!!
I presume it was a 262 Jabo or was it an Arado?


It was an Arado. I checked the 78th's records and Dad's unit crossed on the 14th, having been held in reserve with the 311th INF. I thought he crossed on the 8th, but checking revealed that my memory was faulty. His brother Bill crossed on the 8th (he was in the 310th). Bill had just returned to his company after being hospitalized from action in the Hurtgen. My father was in an artillery unit (307th FA).

I edited my original post accordingly.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline OttoJespersen

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« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2005, 05:15:40 AM »
Cool story Widewing. Thanks for sharing!

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2005, 05:48:20 AM »
According to Smith and Creek:

March 14 attack on the bridge

Ofw. Johne shot down by a Spitfire and killed north of Limburg.

Ofw. Baumler and Fw Schulte attacked by Lightnings and bailed out.

Hptm. Morich's a/c damaged by flak and attacked by Tempests.

Hptm. Hirschberger shot down and killed by Mustangs.

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2005, 04:46:23 PM »
Hi,

just as info, the Me262 of course was able to fly and to land with one engine!

The Me262´s speed did decrease to roundabout 500km/h, therfor it was pretty dangerus to fly with one engine cause it wasnt able to get away from the enemys.

How difficult the landing and slowspeed manouvering in general was did depend to the fuelload, 1800kg fuel make a huge different!

Here you can read about the flyingcharacter of the Me262A.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Flying_the_Me-262.html

Greetings, Knegel
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 04:55:49 PM by Knegel »