Quick thought on the new Spits

[Karnak]

The Mk XVI will have an "e" wing unstead of the 1943 LF.Mk IX's universal wing, so the armament is slightly more powerful.  It will also be clipped, which not all LF.IXs were.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Angus
°So the problem with Spits is that they are too good

Evidently or we would be getting a later model.


   <---- just had to use em.




Bronk

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Karnak
The Mk XVI will have an "e" wing unstead of the 1943 LF.Mk IX's universal wing, so the armament is slightly more powerful.  It will also be clipped, which not all LF.IXs were.

I realise that Karnak.
But performance wise it's NO better than 1943 LF Mk IX.
Thats why I said we only gain 1 year in performance with the new (free)Spits, from 1942 to 1943.
Still leaves 1944/45, that was the WHOLE idea of having it at 25lbs, made it a 1944 Spit XVI, Mk VIII covered 1943, Mk IX 1942, Mk V 1941, Mk I 1940.
Perked Mk XIV at 21lbs boost 1944/45.

Even we realised the chance of getting an F.21 was 0 to -10000000000 when we did the suggested Spit lineup.

Seems strange that in other threads people are vaunting the allegedly technically superior 190/109, and yet we still can't get a 'technically inferior' (in their eyes) 1944 (with matching performance) FREE Spit.

Can imagine the whine-o-meter going off the scale if a Mk XII or F.21 turned up.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Kev367th
It

Seems strange that in other threads people are vaunting the allegedly technically superior 190/109, and yet we still can't get a 'technically inferior' (in their eyes) 1944 (with matching performance) FREE Spit.

turned up.

LOL  Thanx for pointing that out. With all the x aircraft is better than y junk.



Bronk

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Can imagine the whine-o-meter going off the scale if a Mk XII or F.21 turned up.

Why? Personally, I think the LA5 and LA7s are far more of a challange than either of these allegadly scary, but irl 'nothing special' planes. The only scary thing about the Mk 21 are the four Hispanos, but then, the other side has the MK 108, which leaves absolutely no room for error. A single hit and you're toast.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Why? Personally, I think the LA5 and LA7s are far more of a challange than either of these allegadly scary, but irl 'nothing special' planes. The only scary thing about the Mk 21 are the four Hispanos, but then, the other side has the MK 108, which leaves absolutely no room for error. A single hit and you're toast.

Lol, we CAN'T even get a Merlin 66 Mk XVI at 25lbs boost because IT'S TOO GOOD FOR THE MA.

These are both far faster Griffon Spits.
Mk XII was one of the fastest planes low level for its time.
F.21 - tell me a production 109/190 that could do 455-460 straight and level and 20k?
Yes the Mk108 was good, but you have to get a shot on a XII or F.21 first.

In the MA I worry more about Lalas than ANY 190/109.

[Bruno]

IT'S TOO GOOD FOR THE MA.

Who said that? Please quote it verbatim.

What a Spit LF.XVI @ 25 lbs will do is make it a useless addition to the game for events, ToD and scenarios. So this Spit, even at 25 lbs (which is nothing special), becomes completely useless even as a sub. Then RAF fans are stuck with the Spit F.IX for events just like they are now. The LF.VIII could stand in but its longer range is less then ideal as a sub for an LF.IX

Despite your constant whining an 18lbs boost LF.XVI will have more useage overall including the main and in events. Now convince HTC to add an Spit LF.IX as well then you can tool around in the main with 25 lbs boost all you want. The folks that don't support 25lbs boost (even Spit fans like karnak) know exactly why an 18 lbs LF.XXX (IX or XVI) is a better choice overall. The LF.XVI at 18lbs fills a gap and thats why folks prefer it over one at 25 lbs.

Either you can accept that for what it is, or heck keep crying about it...

YMMV

[lasersailor184]

What's the Spit 14's boost now?  How much better will it perform if the boost is going up?

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
What's the Spit 14's boost now?  How much better will it perform if the boost is going up?

Currently at 18lbs, if the FM is fixed the XIV at 21lbs will climb a hell of a lot better than it currently does.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Bruno
Who said that? Please quote it verbatim.

What a Spit LF.XVI @ 25 lbs will do is make it a useless addition to the game for events, ToD and scenarios. So this Spit, even at 25 lbs (which is nothing special), becomes completely useless even as a sub. Then RAF fans are stuck with the Spit F.IX for events just like they are now. The LF.VIII could stand in but its longer range is less then ideal as a sub for an LF.IX

Despite your constant whining an 18lbs boost LF.XVI will have more useage overall including the main and in events. Now convince HTC to add an Spit LF.IX as well then you can tool around in the main with 25 lbs boost all you want. The folks that don't support 25lbs boost (even Spit fans like karnak) know exactly why an 18 lbs LF.XXX (IX or XVI) is a better choice overall. The LF.XVI at 18lbs fills a gap and thats why folks prefer it over one at 25 lbs.

Either you can accept that for what it is, or heck keep crying about it...

YMMV

Check back through the Spit XVI posts you'll find Pyro mentions that a XVI at 25lbs has in his opinion too good a climbrate for the MA and would most likely dominate it.

From speaking to him on the phone he feels that it would give other aircraft only one option - to run.

Gotta add this - If you think given the option of a LF IX @ 18 or a LF XVI @ 25 the IX would see more use in the MA, your living on a different planet.

Yes it would be nice to have both an LF IX and a LF XVI, but we tried to be REALISTIC and keep the suggested extra Spits to a bare MINIMUM. The lineup gave a range of FREE Spits form 1940 to 1944 at DIFFERING performance levles. As it stands theres not enough difference between the VIII and XVI that I believe the VIII may be dropped.

There is no reason why an VIII couldn't stand-in for a LF IX - Compromises are made ALL the time in scenarios/events.

A useless addition - Biggest useless addition in the whole planeset is the TA-152, yet we have it. When was the last time it was ever used in a scenario, or seen a lot of use in the MA for that matter?
Or is it only the LW are allowed useless planes?

Oh and by the way - Karnak was one of us original guys who got together and suggested the XVI at 25lbs boost.

[Bruno]

Check back through the Spit XVI posts you'll find Pyro mentions that a XVI at 25lbs has in his opinion too good a climbrate for the MA and would most likely dominate it.

From speaking to him on the phone he feels that it would give other aircraft only one option - to run.

I think it is you thats needs to search those posts. I have and Pyro didn't make any post stating that, all we have is you claiming he did. Given your consistent whines about how 'HTC hates spitfires' don't expect folks to take your word for it.

In fact Pyro has said the very same thing I have.

Here it is in Pyro's own words:

I think there's been a general consensus in the various threads about how to change the Spit lineup that I pretty much concur with.

There has been some advocacy for a +25lb boost clipped wing Mk XVI. I really don't see what hole that fills. It would pretty much fall into the same category as the XIV. I have no qualms with that plane, but I think going with a 2000+hp version of it would be a waste as it would end up perked and CM's wouldn't use it much either.

__________________
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

This thread

If you think given the option of a LF IX @ 18 or a LF XVI @ 25 the IX would see more use in the MA, your living on a different planet.

A Spit LF.IX or LF.XVI @ 18 lbs will see more use the the Spit F.IX. If you can read here's what I wrote:

Despite your constant whining an 18lbs boost LF.XVI will have more usage overall including the main and in events.

An unperked LF.XVI @ 25lbs may see more use in the main but overall an 18 lbs LF.IX or LF.XVI will see contribute more to all aspects of AH.

Yes it would be nice to have both an LF IX and a LF XVI, but we tried to be REALISTIC and keep the suggested extra Spits to a bare MINIMUM. The lineup gave a range of FREE Spits form 1940 to 1944 at DIFFERING performance levles. As it stands theres not enough difference between the VIII and XVI that I believe the VIII may be dropped.

No shyte... That's why it's more realistic to expect a LF.XVI at 18lbs boost...

A useless addition - Biggest useless addition in the whole planeset is the TA-152, yet we have it. When was the last time it was ever used in a scenario, or seen a lot of use in the MA for that matter?
Or is it only the LW are allowed useless planes?

Why the strawman? Did anyone here mention the 152? BTW who requested that the 152 be added to AH in the first place? Who whined about how HTC must 'Hate Kurt Tank' if HTC doesn't model the 152. 152 usage in AH is as insignificant as it was in rl. It could disappear tomorrow and only a few folks would even think twice about it.

Oh and by the way - Karnak was one of us original guys who got together and suggested the XVI at 25lbs boost.

Search his posts he has said, like many others that an 18 lb LF.XVI would be a more useful and reasonable choice for AH. He may have liked a lightly perked Spit LF.XVI @ 25 lbs but he is not constantly crying about it.  In fact you and he argued about it:

One of his replies:

How many times does it need to be explained to you? I have told you over and over why it is a good thing to have both and yet you insist on pouting.

If we have only the XVI we will never have a chance to get it at +25lbs because of the big gaping hole that would open. Further there would be endless whines about using it in any scenario where a universal wing Spit should be used or a non-clipped Spit should be used. If you don't think that would be used to justify keeping Spits out of scenarios you haven't watched the CT for the last year.

In order to keep all options open we need both the VIII and XVI.

From this thread

As I said you can either accept that explanation or keep crying either way its only you...

[Kev367th]

Try talking to him personally on the phone, youll find out his biggest conscern is its climb rate @ 25lbs.
You'll also realise he reckons it would "dominate the MA". his words, not mine.

Useless - Well you started it, I just showed a useless (by your reckoning) LW plane.

It's fine for you having your free 1944/45 planes, how dare we ask for a free Spit at 1944 performance levels instead of 1943.

Then agian it all fits in with the typical way thing go -
Anything we want has to be documented form at least a dozen independent sources, in triplicate, and personally signed by JC himself.
Anything the other side wants a scribbled/doodled memo even hinting at something is considered gospel.

IF we get the VIII (not definate) there is no reason AT ALL it can't fill in for LF IX, compromises are made constantly in scenarios.

I suppose you'd have no problems with a free Mk XII then?

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Kev367th

I suppose you'd have no problems with a free Mk XII then? [/B]

None at all .


Bronk

[Bruno]

Try talking to him personally on the phone, youll find out his biggest conscern is its climb rate @ 25lbs.
You'll also realise he reckons it would "dominate the MA". his words, not mine.

We don't need to 'talk to him on the phone'. He posted his thoughts on a 25 lb Spit XVI and I have quoted him directly. What you say he said is no value when we have his direct words.

Useless - Well you started it, I just showed a useless (by your reckoning) LW plane.

No you started it by whining once again about a 25 lb Spit. The key word here is 'Spit'. No one in this thread started anything about the LW other then you. It's nothing but strawman, you can't make a counter argument to the points raised so you bring up something completely irrelevant.

It's fine for you having your free 1944/45 planes, how dare we ask for a free Spit at 1944 performance levels instead of 1943.

More strawman, the only purpose of my reply was to point out your whining and the fact that that an 18 lb Spit XVI will have more overall usage. Nothing you have stated comes close to addressing those points.

Anything we want has to be documented form at least a dozen independent sources, in triplicate, and personally signed by JC himself.
Anything the other side wants a scribbled/doodled memo even hinting at something is considered gospel.

More strawman, I never mentioned any documentation my words were:

Who said that? Please quote it verbatim.

What a Spit LF.XVI @ 25 lbs will do is make it a useless addition to the game for events, ToD and scenarios. So this Spit, even at 25 lbs (which is nothing special), becomes completely useless even as a sub. Then RAF fans are stuck with the Spit F.IX for events just like they are now. The LF.VIII could stand in but its longer range is less then ideal as a sub for an LF.IX

Despite your constant whining an 18lbs boost LF.XVI will have more usage overall including the main and in events. Now convince HTC to add an Spit LF.IX as well then you can tool around in the main with 25 lbs boost all you want. The folks that don't support 25lbs boost (even Spit fans like karnak) know exactly why an 18 lbs LF.XXX (IX or XVI) is a better choice overall. The LF.XVI at 18lbs fills a gap and thats why folks prefer it over one at 25 lbs.

Either you can accept that for what it is, or heck keep crying about it...

YMMV

IF we get the VIII there is no reason AT ALL it can't fill in for LF IX, compromises are made constantly in scenarios.

No a VIII has some different characteristics that make it a less suitable substitute for a LF.IX. If forced with no other choice then yes a VIII could fill that roll. However, if HTC is going to model a XVI it would be an ideal substitute for an the 18 lbs LF.XI. A 25 lb Spit LF.XVI, according to Pyro, would have limited use and he expects that it would be perked in the main. Most folks agree with that or at the very least understand his reasoning. Therefore, a Spit XVI @ 18 lbs boost is best the way to go. Any other issue you want to wrap into that is all in your head.

[Kev367th]

"We don't need to 'talk to him on the phone'. He posted his thoughts on a 25 lb Spit XVI and I have quoted him directly. What you say he said is no value when we have his direct words."

No value - Guess you just pick and choose AS USUAL.
Speaking to him personally allows you to go into more detail. But I guess your not interested in detail. Rather than a post on the forum it was about a 25 min conversation I had with him, went over a lot, lot more.
But of course you don't want to hear that he thinks a 'lowly' Spit XVI@25  would probably dominate the MA, goes against the 190/109 uber alles.

Useless - Take it anyway way you want, you said useless as in scenario use etc, I just pointed out there are equally 'useless' planes using your standards, and picked the obvoius one out. In fact lets generalise, I don't believe there has ever been scenario D-Day or beyond? In which case theres a load of 'useless planes'.

No the VIII isn't a perfect stand-in for the LF IX, but it's close enough. Considering some of the compromises made for scenarios it would be minor compared to others.

We couldn't win either way -
If we'd asked for a I, Vb, Vc, FIX, LFIX, LFVIII, XII, FXIV, LFXVI all we would have got is "OH NO NOT ANOTHER SPITFIRE" whine.

You never answered - Any problem with having a free 1942 Spit XII?

{edit} Oops I remember a scenario based on the possibly the last engagement of WW2, the Seafire vs Zekes.