Author Topic: 3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV  (Read 1898 times)

Offline Wilbus

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2005, 05:21:07 AM »
The Mk 103 was never used in late war K4's Oleg, it is a myth, just as the 15mm MG151's on 109 K4's is a myth.

The Mk108 was by far the superior wepon thanks to rate of fire, weight, size etc. The only thing the Mk 103 held over the Mk 108 was velocity. The 109 would be too nose heavy with a Mk103, not only that but the Mk 108 was just above 1 meter long, the Mk 103 was 2.3 meters long. That is 230% longer. The weight of the 103 was just over 140kg compared to just bellow 60kg. That is more then 200% heavier.

As for velocity of Mk 108 I did a re-check and found that I had mixed up the velocity, it is around 500-540 as you said, not 600 as I said.

Still, the effective hit range would be well beyond 100 meters if the shell hits, the biggest problem would be if the shell detonates on top of the surface instead of inside the targets "body" or surfaces.




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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Oleg

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2005, 08:00:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
The Mk 103 was never used in late war K4's Oleg, it is a myth, just as the 15mm MG151's on 109 K4's is a myth.


Are you sure? It must be very common myth then.

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It /mk-103/ was an excellent, powerful weapon, but again it could not be carried by a fighter without considerable loss of performance. Only at the very end of the war did some fighters, such as subtypes of the Bf 109K, carry a MK103 gun on the centreline.

(same link as before)

I saw it in others sites too, just no time to search them again now.

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
The Mk108 was by far the superior wepon thanks to rate of fire, weight, size etc. The only thing the Mk 103 held over the Mk 108 was velocity. The 109 would be too nose heavy with a Mk103, not only that but the Mk 108 was just above 1 meter long, the Mk 103 was 2.3 meters long. That is 230% longer. The weight of the 103 was just over 140kg compared to just bellow 60kg. That is more then 200% heavier.


Cannt agree with you. MK-103 has more powerfull bullets, greater effective range and better ballistics. The primary factor that determine mk-108 usage over mk-103 was weight. Luftwaffe just cannt use such heavy weapon in high-altitude interceptors. They sacrificed range and ballistics to low weight.
RoF wasnt so important, though that still a significant. So american M4 and soviet NS-37 has much low RoF (140 and 250 rpm) but they was used with success even against fighters not only bombers.

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Still, the effective hit range would be well beyond 100 meters if the shell hits, the biggest problem would be if the shell detonates on top of the surface instead of inside the targets "body" or surfaces.


Hmm... I dont sure we both said about same things.
I say "effective range" mean range you still have significant chances to hit your target from. Because of bullet dispersion mostly. MK-108 has big dispersion because of short barrel and low velocity, MK-103 has low dispersion (long barrel and high velocity).
If you was lucky enough to hit something with MK-108 from 500m it cause significant damage as well.

btw, i supposed mk-108 has "thin-walled" bullets with instantaneous fuse (sorry for spelling, i lack technical terms), is it true?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 08:08:39 AM by Oleg »
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Offline Wilbus

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2005, 09:54:27 AM »
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This brings us to the MK 103, which many sources state was used as an engine cannon in some of the later series planes. The truth is that the MK 103 was a massive gun which would not fit in the small space available between the back of the engine and the cockpit. To give some comparative figures; the MK 108 weighed 60kg and was 105cm long, whereas the MK 103 weighed 141 kg and was 235 cm long. About 133cm of the length of the MK 103 was too wide to fit within the narrow tube running between the cylinder banks, so had to be mounted behind the engine, and this was simply impossible.

Despite this problem, the idea of arming the Bf 109 with such a powerful weapon was attractive, so Rheinmetall-Borsig started work on a modified version which would fit, designated the MK 103M. The gas-operating mechanism was slimmed down which enabled the gun to be mounted some 30cm further forward, leaving just enough space to squeeze it into the plane. The MK 103M was reportedly test-flown in a K series, but reliability was poor and the gun was not adopted for service. By this time, however, plans had been drawn up for its installation in the K-8 and K-10 models and these plans later came to light. It was probably this which led researchers to believe that some versions of the Bf 109 were fitted with the MK 103.


Just to back up my statement.

from the page http://www.bf109.com

It is a very common myth, as is the 15mm cowl gun myth, I am not sure where they both come from. I've heard they come from a book published in the 70's. It has been long lived and only during the past few years it's been corrected.

In my opinion it can be easily explained and understood by simply saying this: You can not fit a 2.3 meter, 140kg cannon in a space designed for a 1 meter, 60kg cannon.

The Bf 109 was always designed for "the most powerfull engine fitted in the smallest and lightest airframe possible".
 
The Mk 108 was IMO the far superior weapon for fighter vs fighter combat and for fighter vs bomber attacks. Of course opionons are like a**holes, everyone has one.

The Mk 108 was lighter, higher rate of fire, powerfull enough to bring down a fighter with a single hit or heavy bombers with 3-5 hits. It was much cheaper and easier to produce.
As I said in my previous post, even the german aces often fired at distances of 100 meters or well bellow. If you look at WW2 fotage of german fighters attacking bombers from a long distance (400 meters or more) they usualy score no hits at all even with 20mm and 13mm guns that are far easier to hit with then a 30mm. Doesn't matter what the dispersion is if the pilots can't hit at that distance anyway.

So what good is it to have a gun that you can kill with from 1000 meters if the pilots can't hit?

The Mk 103 was a terrific tank killer, high velocity, heavy AP shells with a fairly good rate of fire.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Oleg

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2005, 01:54:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Just to back up my statement.
...
from the page http://www.bf109.com


Ok, thank for info.

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
As I said in my previous post, even the german aces often fired at distances of 100 meters or well bellow. If you look at WW2 fotage of german fighters attacking bombers from a long distance (400 meters or more) they usualy score no hits at all even with 20mm and 13mm guns that are far easier to hit with then a 30mm. Doesn't matter what the dispersion is if the pilots can't hit at that distance anyway.


But it matter if pilot can. There is real fact, soviet sniper pilot Vorozheikin shoot down Ju88 with single shot from NS-37 gun from about 600 meters. Its exclusion of course, but B-24s was a considerably larger targets.

Back to beginning, Krusty said german 30mm was designed to shoot down buffs from safe distance, i just tried to prove what it wasnt.
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Offline Furball

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2005, 02:05:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lye-El

The Kugelblitz had the chassis and basic superstructure of the Panzer IV tank, on which a newly designed turret was mounted. This turret was fully enclosed, with overhead protection and could turn 360 degrees.


how did they see out of it? ;)
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Offline Wilbus

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2005, 02:26:36 PM »
Rgr.

No the MK 108 wouldn't really be from safe distance unless you wanna waste ammo and hope for hits.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Lye-El

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2005, 03:31:06 PM »
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Originally posted by Furball
how did they see out of it? ;)


Looks like a viewport on the turrent. I would imagine armored glass. :D


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline Wilbus

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3cm MK103/38 Flakzwilling auf Panzer IV
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2005, 03:44:32 PM »
Spray and Pray Furball.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.