Author Topic: Miers.. Constitutionalist?  (Read 1774 times)

Offline SkyWolf

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 599
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2005, 07:28:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Heh.

What I find fascinating about folks like you is the instant gratification requirement that leads to the short view.



What is the long view?

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2005, 08:04:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
I'm trying to recall his role in the Terry Schiavo case - were those the actions of a social moderate?

I am both left and right of center depending in the issue.   Bush has always seemed disingenuous to me.    Just my opinion, but he seems reckless, arrogant, and shortsighted, with a self-confidence that seems completely underserved.   I've been more or less politically aware since Pres Carter, and GW is the first President I recall not respecting as an individual.   Unlike Nash, I don't sense buffoonery in him apart from his speaking and grammar - I always thought of him as 'user friendly' to his power base.

I often wonder the converse of Seagoon - why does the Right love Bush so much?    Cue Ripsnort :)

btw I'm really interested in the Harry Reid angle.   What does he know about her that made him even recommend her to Bush?   That's really a surprising situation to me...


I dont see Bush being a bafoon as much as he seems to play the bafoon. This may be intentional. During even the first elections I remember them saying he liked to "lower expectations then exeeed them" Even Clinton warned his part back in the first election "Dont underestimate this guy"

Unlike Seagoon IMO Bush is right wing all the way.  
I think both Regan and Clinton  were far more moderate then either. Or at least played to the middle more, and better then Bush.

if I may inject.
Why does the right love Bush so much? Because he's right.
Same reason why the left would  love a left winger  like say. Hillary so much, Because she's left.

I've always maintained that the core base of either party wuld support Hitler. Ghengas  Kahn or the devil himself if he was in ther party for no other reason then he was in their party.
I have a brother in law. lifetime union member and diehard democrat. whom I said exactly that to.
You would support Hitler if he was in your party and running for office"
His responce
"Thats right I would"
Why? I asked
"Because he's be a Democrat and I support my party"

I've made similar statements to  die hard Republicans I know and have received pretty much the exact same answer

Personally I think Hillary would be just as poor a president as Bush. Im just happy the two cant run against each other or I might have to go move in with Nash or something (heh, now wouldnt that be interesting)

But anyway. as I said I dont think Bush is as stupid as much as he plays the part.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 08:08:59 AM by DREDIOCK »
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2005, 08:08:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyWolf
Man....that's cold...even for you Toad. Soldiers dying has nothing in common with motor vehicle accidents.


Is there any justification for people dying in alcohol related automobile crashes? Is there any benefit to society, to anyone?

Our soldiers are dying in Iraq in an attempt to give Iraq a chance at having representative government. Whether or not one agrees with the initial reasons for the invasion, there is at least potential benefit to the Iraqi people.

Yet the same folks that are demanding an immediate pullout from Iraq completely and totally ignore a much greater daily loss of life due to alcohol related car wrecks. Now that's cold.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2005, 08:16:53 AM »
more apt would be to ask.... is there any reason for soldiers to die in war games?   Or soldiers to die off base in fast cars or motorcycles or from drugs or drink?

but... is this judge gonna be on the right side of the second amendment?   that is the important question.

lazs

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2005, 08:18:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyWolf
What is the long view?


On Supreme Court nominations?

The long view is that the Constitution is the most important aspect of our government.

Presidents come and go, some good and some bad. Short of world-wide nuclear war there really isn't much a President can do in 4 or 8 years that can't be corrected. The President has limited powers to affect the daily life of the citizenry. He proposes plans/ideas/policies but he cannot implement them.

Congress is the "action arm" of the government. It implements plans/ideas/policies and pays for them. Congress can and does have powers to affect the daily life of the citizenry. Their legislation can be good or bad.

The Supreme Court is the arbiter of good or bad law. They hold the Congress in check with respect to the Constitution. They can strike down "bad law" that isn't within the bounds of the Constitution.

As I've said before, the President proposes, Congress disposes and the Supreme Courts rules.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2005, 10:09:34 AM »
She was on the Dallas City Council. It is the mother of all trainwrecks. That alone should bar her from holding any other office.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2005, 03:58:16 PM »
Hi Oboe,

Quote
Originally posted by oboe
I'm trying to recall his role in the Terry Schiavo case - were those the actions of a social moderate?


During the Schiavo debacle, Bush issued one public statement supporting the Terry's right not to be starved, and then signed the hastily cobbled together "Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act" and then failed to enforce it. Essentially, he tried to play to both sides of the issue, making supportive gestures towards Terry's parents in order not to alienate his base, but not actually spending the political capital that would have been necessary to actually intervene. His actions ended up frustrating conservatives to no end, not only on the right to life issues, but because by not acting he reinforced the notion that all "life issues" are to be decided in the courts by judges rather than by the nations elected officials. In essence, his decision confirmed the rationale for the Roe decision.

That refusal to "pull the trigger" on anything except Iraq and to actually confront the ideological issues is one of the many things that makes Bush more of a politician than a conservative statesman in the mold of say Reagan, Thatcher, and Churchill. The statesman says, "if something is right I will do everything legal in my power to bring it about, no matter what it costs me" So, for instance, Churchill opposed the appeasement and disarmament policies of successive conservative administrations because he rightly saw that the rise of Nazi Germany was a grave threat and a great evil that would someday have to be confronted militarily. His decision to do so cost him so greatly that he ended up in the "political wilderness" estranged from his own party, but history has vindicated him. Bush, on the other hand, constantly "blinks", perhaps in an effort to "go along to get along."

A far better indicator of this tendency than say the Schiavo case would be his actions on the gay marriage issue. As you are probably aware, opposing gay marriage is not exactly a politically risky action. As statewide referendums have shown, even in otherwise blue states, a majority of Americans are against them. The vast majority of Republicans are against them, and yet Bush remained almost silent on the issue, making vague noises, until finally coming out in favor of Gay Civil unions.

He is a politician, therefore he constantly seeks consensus, which inevitably involves making compromises, but what irritates conservatives is that as people who believe both in standing on principle and in objective truth they hold that the worst approach to deciding between two positions is to adopt a position in-between both. To put it more simply, in an argument between two sides where one insists that 2+2=4 and the other who insists that 2+2=5 the correct approach is not to agree to 4.5 as a compromise answer. So, for instance, a conservative says that if we are going to remain true to our principles we have to cut taxes and cut spending on entitlements (or at least freeze their growth). Bush, as a Moderate, has been unwilling to expend the political capital and enter the fight necessary to cut entitlements, and as a result he has adopted a Cut Taxes/Grow Entitlements approach that will send deficits through the roof. Whatever you believe the correct answer to the tax and spend question is, it certainly isn't that one.

A moderate wants consensus, seeks compromise, and wants everyone to like him, forgetting or not realizing that the men who end up most admired are those who are remembered and honored for the strength of their convictions and that no one admires a man whose backbone is made of rubber. Even Gandhi didn't want some independence for India and some some rule by Britain, he campaigned tirelessly, and worked step by step towards total independence.

I know this won't be a popular opinion, and for that I'm sorry. I don't gain any great joy in speaking highly critically of anyone, much less the president. But I'm not beholden to the Republican party and I'm not a believer in compromise over issues of great importance. I believe firmly that no man should go against his conscience, if its right, then do it and let God and history be the judge. Enough with pragmatism, compromise, and namby, pambyism.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2005, 06:35:48 PM »
I'm wondering what Harry Reid is up to. Does he really support the nomination of Meir or his he doing so simply to divide the Republicans even further on the issue?
sand

Offline Booz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2005, 08:57:33 PM »
She's a corporate lackey. No one cares if you beer drinking, gun-toting red state trailer park patriots are afraid of gays or not. Just keep pushing those that want to cut your Walmart & Mcdonalds paychecks for the sake of corporate profits and gawd bless ya.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 08:59:51 PM by Booz »

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2005, 09:19:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
I know this won't be a popular opinion, and for that I'm sorry. I don't gain any great joy in speaking highly critically of anyone, much less the president. But I'm not beholden to the Republican party and I'm not a believer in compromise over issues of great importance. I believe firmly that no man should go against his conscience, if its right, then do it and let God and history be the judge. Enough with pragmatism, compromise, and namby, pambyism.

- SEAGOON


Kinda frightening, Seagoon. I understand what yer gettin' at, but... well, look at it like this:

51% of the country likes many things about X.

49% of the country likes many things about Y.

Neither group likes everything about either X and Y.

So just because a coupla hundred thousand more people like more things about X than Y, should that mean that everything about X be jammed down everyone's throats? Mathematically, that would disenfranchise much more of the population than it would please.

"Pragmatism [and] compromise" is not the weakness but the strength of a Democracy. To find its counterpoint, look to a dictatorship.

But your perspective is different, and it's easy to see why. When it comes to religion, there is no middle ground - everything is absolute. There is no half-sin, for example, nor any sub-clauses etched into the ten commandments. It's either right or it's wrong.

So if I may be so bold as to take a stab at explaining your disappointment with Bush...

You got used. Sure, you were flooded with cheap little brochures hastilly passed around in your circle with the constant assurances that "We're with you.... and they're most certainly not." And you get the odd born again dime-store phrase sprinkled hither and thither to make you think: "Finally, our President is one of us."

But he aint one of you. It turns out, he has got to govern a country that, collectively, holds a kazillion personal beliefs held with no less conviction than your own, including the millions upon millions upon millions of those with equally as strong a conviction in their belief of nothing.

Do not think for a second that they didn't know that when you were enlisted for his election. You got used. And now? YOU'RE the problem. They can't possibly do what you're asking, yet they can't completely alienate you either. It's like an albatross around their necks. They are positively scrambling but there's no way out when it comes to absolutes. Like you said - you cannot accept compromise.

It's basically like a deal with the devil. They needed you in order to win an election. Now that they've won? You've become a liability they can't shake.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 09:51:17 PM by Nash »

Offline bj229r

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2005, 09:24:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Oh. Yeah....

I'm with ya there.

Coaching nominees is now a bonafide sustainable business.

What's been.... weird.... I guess... is that the nominating party has now tried to make it seem like an abberation, an unnacceptable invasion to ask these nominees what they think.

I don't think it's out of line to be like, "Who are you?" when it comes to lifetime appointments deciding the matters of men.

I know that you base your ballot on who the President nominates for the Supreme Court, Toad. Is this really what you had in mind?



You're right--Clinton had no qualms what-so-ever about nominating Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a PRESIDENT OF THE ACLU, and only 3 GOP senators voted against her--Bush surrendered without even a skirmish--ya cant show weakness in politics
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #71 on: October 05, 2005, 09:25:00 PM »
Winner takes all, its always been that way in the USA in political elections.  By winner, I mean that party that won and by take all I mean they get the bully pulpit and the strenghth of the office of president and related appointed positions. One of those powere is nominating wjover you bthink is good for whatever post is open to such nominations - then congrsss gets to vote on that nomination if applicable.  Nothing new about this, nothing there to disenfranchise people.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 09:28:25 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2005, 09:35:05 PM »
I aint whinin... and in fact, I aint even suprised.

The Bush team is doing the whining here..... and to me it sounds like the noises ya make after being rudely jostled awake, right at the moment, after fending off 6 foot bunnies and burrowing through keyholes, when you and Cameron were finally about to get carnal.

Offline oboe

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9787
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #73 on: October 05, 2005, 09:43:12 PM »
Hi Seagoon -

Thanks for taking the time to answer.   I do remember something about Bush before the election promising to come out strongly against gay marriage, and then sitting on his hands regarding the issue after he won.    I don't know that I'd call that moderation as much as simple political duplicity or manipulation.    

I can see that you have a dim view of moderates, and I won't try to change you mind on the matter.   Suffice to say that your arithmetic example could just as easily have been represented by the extremes positing 2+2=3 on one side and 2+2=5 on the other, in which case the middle ground answer 2+2=4 would be quite satisfactory.    Alas, political disagreements aren't mathematic problems where the true correct answer can be known.  All we generally have are two different sides with their conflicting beliefs.
   
To me, the moderate seeks to make progress by building on any common ground between the two often stalemated extremes.    That is distinct from the namby pambyist, who tries to make progress by simultaneously giving in to both extremes. :)

btw, I think Nash hit it right on about the importance of compromise in Democracy.    Think about Iraq for a second - is there any doubt that in order to make Democracy function there it will require a spirit of compromise between the 3 different factions?   I am sure you want democracy to take root in Iraq and the Middle East.   Yet look at your own stubborn extremism here.  Are you not espousing the kind of unyielding extremist attitude that would doom the fledgling democracy in Iraq to failure?

« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 09:51:52 PM by oboe »

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Miers.. Constitutionalist?
« Reply #74 on: October 05, 2005, 10:06:16 PM »
The Republicans have pandered to Christian conservatives in the same way the Democrats have pandered to the ultra liberals. A lot of talk but not much action. Actually, a bit more action from the Democrats, but hardly anything a true Nader supporter would appreciate.

In the end Christian Conservatives are a powerful voting block, but more so are suburban soccer moms and other moderate/centrist Republicans voting on autopilot as long as things don't get too extreme.

What gets me, is there was a fair amount of evidence that it was for real with Bush, that he was born again. That he would walk the walk. He went to bible study for two years or more before he even got into politics. I think it was even before the whole Christian Coalition era (may be wrong).

I have to suspect that she is far more conservative than most conservatives know. Or not. Puzzling.

So far the only conservative groups I can see that should be happy with him are Fortune 500 company execs and that top .5 percent.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 10:10:17 PM by Charon »