Fellow Americans what do you think.....

[Toad]

Yeah, Pongo. I wonder what guidance he was getting from "Higher HQ".  I'd be amazed if they didn't have SATCOM on that thing.

I keep getting that itchy feeling that there's more to this story that OUR Navy won't want to talk about. (Though in my own mind I'm pretty much convinced the Chinese fighter pilot failed his formation checkride.) <EDIT> I'm referring here to the Command & Control aspect.

Generally speaking, ALL US Recon flights are very closely monitored, around the world and around the clock (at least they used to be.)

People with the authority and theoretically the "smarts" to make instant decisions never used to be more than a minute or two away from the "phone".

Hard to believe that a Lt.JG Plane Captain made this decision all by his lonesome.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-03-2001).]

[Tac]

"Im with Toad plus I would arm Taiwan to the brim with grim. A heavily armed Taiwan could probably defeat the mainland army in a week or three"

You seem to forget how a million or so chinese swarmed korea in the 50's. On the other hand, why not arm the tibetans?

Use force against china, what a ludicrous idea. WW3, if it goes to nukes, will have only the chinese as victors, as probabilty has it that MORE chinese will survive than the rest of the world. The whole idea is laughable.

Economic sanctions?  Another lost cause. If cuba has endured it for 50 years, China can. And China makes a toejamload of stuff US consumers like to buy and on which most US companies depend on for cheap labor. Look at your trusty joystick..its made in china!.

I think bush should just follow his predecesor's example: Go to china and vomit on the Chinese leader's tie. Then this whole thing will be forgotten, as the president's vomit is more media news.  

[Oosik]

Covered in other post

 

[This message has been edited by Oosik (edited 04-03-2001).]

[blur]

I wouldn't crack open the liquor and weapons display case just yet fellas. China's biggest enemy is itself. Communist countries have proven to have a very short shelf life.  As some Chinese sage must have said, "Patience".

In any case, if this a/c is so valuable why wasn't it ditched?

Is it just me or has the military really been screwing the pooch lately?

[MrSiD]

It's really funny to see how grown up people make complete tulips of themselves..

Like it or not, China is a huge country and even if it does have outdated technology it can hurt US with shere numbers.

Diplomacy is the only way to work with the problem..

The crew of the plane was literally asking for trouble going near chinese borders.. Usually they get away with it, this time toejam hit the fan.

Communist dictatorships are known to be totally uncontrollable, a reason why I never want to visit russia for example.. They will shoot first ask questions later.

As much as you see China being the devil itself, the Chinese see your country as evil.

Bombing the embacy in Bosnia and Bush making half-ass remarks referring to Kyoto agreement won't make things any easyer on the diplomatic level. You have to remember that they slaughtered masses of their own people in the square of the heavenly peace massacre.. Students having a peaceful protest.

China is a triggered bomb, if US has any brain at all it will try to defuse it instead of hitting with a hammer.

Let's see.. At least Eagler and others seem to already dance the 'hammertime'

Some of the US folks seem to think that based on recent history their country can do whatever it pleases, one cruise missile here another there and everyone's a happy puppy..
All I can say is that you are SO brainwashed and SO stupid. Shelling China would be an act of war according to those international laws that you so much like to underline..

I'm not aware of any international laws protecting foreign military equipment/crew in case the spy mission goes bad. The usual doctrine with dealing foreign government vehicles is that they are hostile unless otherwise reported.

The presence of the ac was not authorized by China so the open skies agreement has nothing to do with it. Open skies is based on controlled mutual surveillance flights between countries.

If you thought Vietnam was bad.. hehehe.. China will be like that but only nothing like it..

[Eagler]

Bush statement 1600 EST:

Time's Up China!

Eagler

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Tac:
You seem to forget how a million or so chinese swarmed korea in the 50's. On the other hand, why not arm the tibetans?

But, Tac, isn't it pretty hard to swim wearing a combat infantryman's loadout? And Tanks! They are just so s-l-o-o-o-w in deep water!  (Image removed from quote.)

WW3, if it goes to nukes, will have only the chinese as victors,

Back in the bad old days of the Cold War, the powers that HAD nukes all knew there were NO winners in a nuke exchange.

I'm not so sure the Chinese leadership has grasped this fact as yet. In 10 years or so this could be a real problem. (Star Wars, anyone? Oh, no! We'll NEVER need anything like THAT! Don't even bother to research it. After all, the Chinese leaders are such rational, predictable and friendly folks!   (Image removed from quote.)  )

Economic sanctions?  Another lost cause. If cuba has endured it for 50 years, China can. And China makes a toejamload of stuff US consumers like to buy and on which most US companies depend on for cheap labor. Look at your trusty joystick..its made in china!.

Yeah, baby! Look how WELL they live in Cuba! I bet the Chinese hope to live that well someday. Slowly losing their best trading partner that runs an -83,810.00 MILLION USD deficit with her wouldn't bother the Chinese a bit.

Beyond that, there is simply no other Asian nation or nations that have the capability to inexpensively make the cell phones, cheap CD's, flip-flop sandals and T-shirts that Americans can't live without! If such nations did exist, they wouldn't want a piece of the trade anyway, would they?  

BTW, all my CH stuff... Stick, Throttle and Rudders.... says "made in US" on the bottom. Still working after about 7-8 years too...go figure.  

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-03-2001).]

[Toad]

Originally posted by MrSiD:
The crew of the plane was literally asking for trouble going near chinese borders.. Usually they get away with it, this time toejam hit the fan.

Sorry, Sid.

Nearly every "world power" country performs aerial surveillance missions. I'm sure China does as well, particularly against Taiwan. There are rules for how to do it. As long as the rules are followed, there is almost NEVER a problem.

This statement of yours shows a lack of understanding of worldwide recon activities.

I'm not aware of any international laws protecting foreign military equipment/crew in case the spy mission goes bad.

The fact that YOU are unaware of them doesn't mean they don't exist. They do.

Beyond that, this isn't a "spy mission gone bad". This was a mid-air collision with a recon aircraft over International waters which resulted in an aircraft in distress.

"Spy mission gone bad" might describe the Powers flight, however.   (Image removed from quote.)
 
The presence of the ac was not authorized by China...

Doesn't have to be over International Waters. The causal factor, the mid-air collision almost HAS to be the fault of the Chinese. Here's why:

1. The Chinese chose to intercept the aircraft over International Waters.

2. Nothing says they can't intercept, however, if they do, THEY assume the responsibility for separation of aircraft. In other words, they must AVOID hitting the intecepted aircraft.

3. In all of aviation regulation and law, the less maneuverable, slower aircraft has the right of way.

Now, after a collision occurs, especially so given the above circumstances, the Chinese are bound by international aviation treaties to render all possible assistance to an aircraft in distress. That's why all this stuff about "permission to land" and "violation of airspace" is hogwash.

[miko2d]

 Toad summed it up, very well.

 It's time to stop trying to impress chinese with our "kindness". Their leaders do not care and their people do not know the real situation anyway.

 We should stop financing a country hostile to us with a government system that would never be comfortable with our democracy. If we need a cheap labor, Mexico can use all that trade dificit.

miko

[Animal]

I dont like this at all.
I'm not clear if its an act of war from the chinese, the plane being a spy plane. But I'm pretty sure it was rammed by the chinese fighter intentionally. Two planes flying slowly in a straight line can tap each other and not break apart; for example I once read an account of WWII in wich an US flyer had a jammed bomb stuck in its wing, and his wingleader got close to him and tried to pull the bomb out with his wingtip.

So I think the chinese forced the plane to land because they were smarter than to shoot it down.

I'm all against the US reacting violently to China, but if nothing is done, next time, it will be civilians held captive in China with some roadkill accusations. It could be a member of your family.

I saw the US has to re-think their relations to that country. Clearly their goverment is not the kind of "righteous" goverment the US promotes.

This is almost an act of terrorism.

[DB603]

S!

 Using military means to persuade China is like seeking for trouble.They are at their home turf and have the definite edge there.Don't need to bring stuff overseas etc-->No logistical problems.For the US it would take weeks to prepare anything significant and before that all China would be on alert status.And I don't think USA will risk losing any of it's CV's(or another valuable equipment/crews) there because of a P3 "Orion" and few crew members.It is the politics that will solve this IMO.Don't take this as underestimating the military power of US,but try to see the facts from behind the red-blue-white goggles   I really wish that the new president of US stops bullying around and seeks for a better solution than any kind of military action.Best for all of us.My 2 cents,not a flame Gentlemen.



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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

[Tac]

Toad, wake up. Nuke war, the MAD policy was designed so no COUNTRY or NATION could win.

Now think about what I said. almost half the world's population is in China (heck, perhaps even more thatn that). The nukes start flying... who has a statistical chance of surviving? The chinese gov may be blasted to kingdom come, but the Chinese wont. And those people have THOUSANDS of years of social cohesion and history.

Compare how many fighters and ships the Taiwanese have compared to China. Now think how many china would BUILD when they seriously plan to take Taiwan by force. Who is closer to Taiwan? The US or China? Just as the US can plan an invasion, so can the Chinese, and in this one, the chinese hold the upper hand.

"Look how WELL they live in Cuba! I bet the Chinese hope to live that well someday

I think that comment backfires on itself.

"Beyond that, there is simply no other Asian nation or nations that have the capability to inexpensively make the cell phones, cheap CD's, flip-flop sandals and T-shirts that Americans can't live without"

Name one that has the same capability as china RIGHT NOW (without massive investment by foreign/US industry) to do that.

Oh, and most "made in the us" have internal components "made elsewhere".

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by Animal:

This is almost an act of terrorism.

Take the "almost" out and you have it right.
If they rammed us, it's an act of war...
Now they will not release our crew, is this not an act of aggression at the very least and an act of war at it's worst?
What if one of the crew was YOUR brother, sister or father? They do not have a right to keep the plane nor it's crew. The Chinese LEADERSHIP, not it's uninformed populous, needs to held accountable. We need a to show them the "big stick" we are carrying. Either an economic or military stick, a BIG stick none the less. Do realize every arse backwards third world country is watching us to see how much we take ....

Eagler

[funked]

Daff that was a funny one.  

[Animal]

I wonder what would have happened if this situation had happened with Cuba or some other weak country