Author Topic: Fellow Americans what do you think.....  (Read 6302 times)

Offline pzvg

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Fellow Americans what do you think.....
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2001, 05:48:00 AM »
Maniac, If We rammed them? lessee now big slow ungainly recon plane vs small fast nimble fighter = They suck.
Get serious.

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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2001, 05:59:00 AM »
Yikes!

This could raise the price of my next Saitek combo !

Now that's something to worry about  

Anyone else notice what's absent from the national news lately? The never ending flow of poll results. Nice to have a President who doesn't flap around in the wind basing his policy or lack thereof on the latest pollsters analysis..


waiting & watching, what else is there really to do as we are just observers.

Eagler
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Offline mx22

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« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2001, 08:41:00 AM »
Because that plane should not have landed at Chinese airport. Period.

mx22

 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
Mx, why should the US be embarassed?


Offline Toad

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« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2001, 10:01:00 AM »
DB603, I interpeted this "president of US stops bullying to mean you think Bush has been "bullying" in this incident. I would disagree with that; I think he's been pretty restrained so far.

Jekyll, Fish do you also remember that Viktor Belenko DEFECTED with his Foxbat? Bit of a TOTALLY different situation under International law when compared to an aircraft in distress. Oh, you didn't remember that part? How con-veeeeeen-ient.

Maniac, if we rammed them it was either the most amazing feat ever performed by an EP-3 (chasing down an F-8) or it is an example of an F-8 pilot not paying attention to the job at hand.

Remember, when the Chinese interecept over International Waters they assume the responsibility for the separation of aircraft. It is THEIR responsibility alone.

So, MX, the US should be embarassed because one of its aircraft, which experienced a mid-air when intercepted by Chinese fighters in International Airspace, was so damaged that it had to land at the nearest airfield?

The US should be embarassed because the Chinese, signatories to all the International Civil Aviation Organization treaties are not abiding by the parts that cover aid and assistance to an aircraft in distress?

Is that why the US should be embarassed?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
Fish do you also remember that Viktor Belenko DEFECTED with his Foxbat? Bit of a TOTALLY different situation under International law

how? what law would cover it in that situation? it is stolen russian property and they demanded that it not be touched. what right did we assert in diassembling thier aircraft against their wishes - salvage law? not hardly, it wasn't abandoned it was stolen. which specific international law let us disassemble their aircraft?

Offline Tac

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« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2001, 11:39:00 AM »
the law of allied opportunism.

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2001, 11:42:00 AM »
MX, they should be embarrased because they landed, and lived?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
IIRC, the Japanese government impounded Belenko's Foxbat on the grounds that the defecting pilot did not have the
correct documents and papers for importing military hardware into Japan.  

Note that Belenko DID NOT declare an emergency situation.

You may not be able to distinguish the difference, but it's there.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2001, 11:57:00 AM »
not convinced

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2001, 11:57:00 AM »
Toad -

You won't get any argument from me about China. They are very much a 'rogue superpower'. But foreign policy should take this into account, and they shouldn't be treated as any other state. It was almost inevitable that this was going to happen, considering Bush's recent comments regarding China being a 'competitor'. Considering the military might on either side, such a comment also has military connotations that China couldn't possible mis-interpret.

You ask why no advice for the Chinese. Put simply, we know how Chinese foreign affairs works -  but we are just seeing how Bush deals with affairs outside the US.

Furthermore, the US f***** up in Serbia with that errant strike on the Chinese embassy. That really, really was the worst thing you could have done - saying 's*** happens' and shrugging it off is ignorant and downright foolish considering the relations between the US/China.

This attitude will get the US the reputation of 'rogue' superpower very quickly.

The British Empire was a self-serving entitity (using today's standards, which is not a paticularly fair thing to do). Americans assert that the US is the complete opposite, and for the large part it is. But this complacency and arrogance, epitomised by the view that US should do 'what it likes, when it likes' in international affairs is naive and myopic. It is also a danger to global political stability. Ironically, the Chinese approach the world with this exact same attititude.

In this modern world, there is (and should be) responsibility with power - this is something the British Empire never really attained to; it is also something the US could sink to.

Maybe after this Bush will realise the world is a big place, and however large the US has become, it is and always will be one country among hundreds.



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-04-2001).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2001, 12:13:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish:
not convinced

Nothing would.  

I don't want to confuse you with the facts, so I'll stop trying.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2001, 12:16:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding:
In this modern world, there is (and should be) responsibility with power - this is something the British Empire never really attained to; it is also something the US could sink to.

Maybe after this Bush will realise the world is a big place, and however large the US has become, it is and always will be one country among hundreds.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-04-2001).]

Dowding,

Maybe you should forward this to the Chinese? Might it not apply to them to a far larger degree than the US?

 

Excusing their behavior because they are as "known rogues"? Let's see...did that work with Adolph's gang of merry men?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

funked

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« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2001, 12:25:00 PM »
 
Quote
excusing their behavior because they are as "known rogues"?

It's kind of like if you have a large and rabid dog in your front yard.  You don't excuse him for his tendency to bite you on the bellybutton repeatedly, but it is damn sure your responsibility to keep the hell out of his way.  

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2001, 12:52:00 PM »
you are killin me toad   i'm going to assume your sarcasm is intended to be good natured.

you actualllllly expect me to believe that we honestly thought belenko was trying to illegally import military aircraft?

are you a lawyer? - if not you should be because respectfully my friend, that is ludicrous-it's one of those capital spin jobs "we gotta say something" even though it does not match actual intent. intent is important imo. finding a neat loophole does not negate the intent. besides, consider the note he handed to japanese guards:

"........As soon as he landed in Japan, the
defecting Russian pilot Victor Belenko attempted to communicate with the Japanese bystanders. He gave them a note in which
he intended to say, “Contact a representative of the American intelligence service. Conceal and guard the aircraft. Do not allow anyone near it.”

oh yeah, i guess they dropped the "i'm trying to import it" part eh comrade...? i can see i wont convince you so i wont try. i'm quite stuck on the position that we are applying a double standard.

my point is that i think everyone should do a little exercise when things like this happen:

how would it be if the situation was reversed?

i dont think people are being honest about their responses.

can you tell me straight faced that if the absolute latest frmr soviet fighter was in front of us right now, emergency declared, that we wouldnt wriggle up an excuse to study it?

"gee i really want to study it but the law sz i'm not s'posta"

you would have a freshly scrubbed boy scout:

"here mr china sir, we found your airplane, we didnt touch nuthin and i even gave er an extra coat of wax free of charge!"

i doubt it, but at this point it doesnt matter so much. things have deteriorated imo. if war comes to war my bullets will be right next to yours and every bit as deadly and committed, make no mistake. until that point i will question everything i hear because leaders lie and good america comes form skeptical americans.

i also want us to play globally and by the same rules we expect others to play by. we'd strip it, we cant expect them not to, we should have given it to them and concentrated on the crew instead of posturing right off the bat. if they didnt play ball we could have always retalliated economoically, at least no lives would be at stake.in fact keeping this a secret altogether would have prevented the need to save face.

nietzsche warned the germans of arrogance in apparant superiority. they didnt heed his warning, and in fact tried to warp his words to support their plans, and look where it got them. just when you think you are on top and winning is the time to be most humble and i dont see that in our country - that worries me because it makes other countries want to say "look at me i', not doing what you say see see". geez what a long boring post -  

Offline batdog

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Fellow Americans what do you think.....
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2001, 01:04:00 PM »
 Hehe... this has got some people fired up. Look, this is a PURE political situation. There will be NO miltary action. The plane's crew had plenty of time to destroy all the crypto equip thats so sensitive. The rest of the planes equipment beyond that isnt anything they can't get or dont already have. Those MI guys have specific SOP's for this type of situation... and as I said before they had plenty of time to execute it I'm sure.
 
  Those pilots will be coming home... have no fear. The Chinese will "debrief" them some.. but no force will be used. They'll mainly look for a slip or something of political nature they can use. The Chinese have ALOT more to lose than we do.

 The Chinese are not fools. They have no intention of becoming involved in a conflict with the USA. They are simply bargining... nothing more.

Batdog
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu