Fellow Americans what do you think.....

[mx22]

Fatty and Toad,

Yes this country should be embarassed that its military allowed plane of such importance land on the airfield of a not friendly country. I don't know what that plane carried, but I'm sure that by know China, Russia and whoever else is interested, know what it had, how it operated and etc. That plane should have been ditched in deep waters. And crew? Well, when you join military, you assume certain responsibility and one of them is not to allow such plane get into the enemy hands (say what you want, but I would hardly believe that anyone in the military thought that China was our ally prior to the accident). I'm glad they are alive and I hope they will be released soon, but it is a big blow for US military that such a plane was allowed to be taken intact.
Btw, Toad, you clearly using double standards in comparing this story to Mig-25. US had no right to investigate how Mig worked. It did and you say it's ok. Now American plane is forced to land on Chinese airfield (which it should not have done) and you say it's illigal for them to check it out? I laugh at your argument.

mx22

[Toad]

Originally posted by mrfish:

you actualllllly expect me to believe that we honestly thought belenko was trying to illegally import military aircraft?

No, you asked what part of international law was relative to the Belenko incident. What I posted is, AFAIK, the "rationale" behind the JAPANESE GOVERNMENT'S DECISION.

If you have other information from your research, please post it. I'm always interested in learning more.

BTW, I'm not sure of your point on this, the ENTIRE QUOTE about Belenko's note:

"As soon as he landed in Japan, the defecting Russian pilot Victor Belenko attempted to communicate with the Japanese bystanders. He gave them a note in which he intended to say, “Contact a representative of the American intelligence service. Conceal and guard the aircraft. Do not allow anyone near it.” Having no knowledge of English, what he actually wrote in the note that he prepared in advance with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary was, “Quickly call representative American intelligence service. Airplane camouflage. Nobody not allowed to approach.” When the Japanese translated the message into Japanese, the meaning that emerged was “Aircraft booby-trapped. Do not touch it.” Obviously, Belenko's linguistic context was different than that of the Japanese bystanders, so he could not communicate his intentions.

If you don't like the rationale used by the Japanese Government, I can accept that. I can tell you this, however, (after registering an automobile with the Japanese government on Okinawa) they have a pretty formidable "red tape" establishment that they take very seriously.

Now did the US and Japan scheme together over the Foxbat? I'm quite sure they did.

This does not, however, change the fact that an aircraft brought in by an admitted defector is quite a different circumstance from one in declared emergency status.

That is what you seem to be unable to accept. Nothing is going to convince you otherwise. So why should I bother?

 

how would it be if the situation was reversed?

Why don't YOU do a little research and give us some examples of what happened when the "shoe was on the other foot"?

Should be illuminating.

[Eagler]

a little more gas on the fire ...

heard today that they didn't ditch due to damaged flaps which would have made the maneuver highly risky, probably fatal, and the fact that they had women on board that didn't want to mess up their nails or hair  

Eagler

[batdog]

Isnt anybody listening..err reading. Those guys where going down... they KNEW they where going to land on Chinese soil. They destroyed the crypto equip... its gone. Dont sweat it... its all about face saving now. These guys do these flights/and train train train for this type of situation...they are NOT morons, the Chinese will get little of consequnce from this plane.

batdog

[Eagler]

it's been stated that they had less than 20 min from collision to landing and that the plane dropped over 8k before the pilot regained control. Is that enough time to destroy the equipment?
But that's a mute point at this time, they now have the plane and whatever secrets they could get, it's about the crew. At this point they are hostages. Anyone remember Iran??

We need to tell China we are coming to pick them up and proceed to fly in there with enough firepower that if they get in the way or try to stop us, they are toast. End of crisis.

Eagler

[Toad]

Batdog,

I disagree.

The easy stuff to destroy you can do pretty quickly. Paper gets shredded, software gets the big magnet treatment a few times.

The hardware, which is equally important, is much harder to destroy. Particularly things like antennae on the exterior. This technology is very expensive and very time consuming to develop.

It's going to be an intelligence windfall for the Chinese.

Can't do much about that though.

[Toad]

You live in a two story house. You have a huge picture window in your master bedroom. You like to boff your significant other in this bedroom with the draperies open and the bright lights on at 9PM every night.

Now there is a public road on a hill that is level with your master bedroom picture window and it runs past the window just 10 feet away. It's a public right-of-way.

By and by, a crowd gathers every nite and stands on this road watching you and your significant other.

You don't like them watching.

Are they spying or doing recon?  

They are doing Recon.

If you don't like it, pull the drapes and/or turn out the lights.

This is all that goes on in Recon, and just about all the "great powers" do it.

[batdog]

 I have heard that this situation is planned and preped for. The sensative equip can be quicly disabled/destroyed... how I dont know as that was never mentioned. Also as far as time is considered... how long did they have before the plane was actually boarded and the crew left the plane...? I'm simply putting my faith in our guys doing the job. They know the cost of letting this stuff fall into enemy hands... they did the job they where trained to do in the manner they where trained to do. I have faith  

batdog

[Eagler]

from the road (international airspace)it's recon, from the bushes next to the window (over China) it's spying

shame our own freaking media keeps calling it a "spy" plane instead of a reconnaissance aircraft. Guess it's a ratings thing ..

Eagler

[MrSiD]

Toad: FYI looking inside a private house without consent of the owner is eavesdropping and the owner of the house can sue for disturbance of 'home peace' it's an invasion of privacy. Legally the border crosses when the party looking is using the information for his benefit, taking pictures or collecting sensitive information.

Eagler: 'We need to tell China we are coming to pick them up and proceed to fly in there with enough firepower that if they get in the way or try to stop us, they are toast. End of crisis.'

You must be a total idiot to think that you can run to China like its some small country in Bosnia.. You needed the international coalition just to deal with Iraq and Iraq is _small time_ compared to China. Get your head out of your bellybutton man.

[Toad]

Show me some reference on that please.

Looking is eavesdropping? How interesting.

Even when the homeowner leaves his windows open, doesn't pull the drapes and leaves the lights on? The homeowner has no obligations to protect his privacy?

[Raubvogel]

Won't it be funny when the Chinese open the computer cases and see "MADE IN CHINA" stamped all over the stuff inside    

------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Eagler]

Aw MrSid,
It took me so long to get it there though  

I do believe we need to show our resolve, to hurt them in the pocketbook would big a larger blow and safer too considering own downsized military.

And for the record, the U.S. military didn't need any help with Iraq, strictly politics for everyone to pitch in or appear to pitch in. We didn't need to have our Arab folks hate us evil Americans even more..

Eagler

[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Dowding]

Toad, did you read the first paragraph of my reply?

What do you suggest you do with this 'rabid dog'? Give it a good slap?

BTW, to use this daft 'home owner's privacy' analogy - is it legal to tap someone's phones, monitor their mobile phone broadcasts? That plane IS a spy plane - I've heard it has the capability to monitor EM emissions across the whole spectrum. That would include microwaves as well as radio transmissions, hence mobile phones would not be secure.

I wonder that if China did the same thing and flew recon. planes 12 miles from New York, you'd say they were entitled to? Wouldn't they be intercepted before they got within 200 miles?

During the 80's, Russian Bears would frequently fly over the North Sea/Atlantic around Britain. International airspace, I'm sure, but RAF F3 Tornados armed with Skyflash missiles would 'escort' them away all the same. This is probably what the Chinese were doing, but the pilot made a mistake.

I wonder how often this game plays out over there and we just don't hear about it.

China are in the wrong, but you've got to give them a way to back down, else the toejam could really hit the fan. Maybe not immediately, but very soon.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-05-2001).]

[MrSiD]

Toad: I'm not an expert on american laws, but at least in my country it is illegal to look inside another persons home/car if it's done in bad intentions.

For example it's illegal to take binoculars and watch inside your neighbours house (while the guy is beating up the wife and then use that information, even to tell that happened to someone. Although in the case of domestic violation the law suites are dropped by rule.)

In general it's illegal to tap the neighbours phone converstations.. It's illegal to listen through the wall in order to hear what they talk.. It's illegal to check in their livingroom to report which kind of programs they watch..

A persons home is PRIVATE period. Even if the person decides to leave the windows open, it does not mean that he is inviting everyone to take out the binoculars and start spying.  

If two people decide to have sex in their car, you are not allowed to stay outside and watch (wanking? LOL) because the insides of the car is a private area. etc etc..