Author Topic: China  (Read 1790 times)

Offline Soda

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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2001, 02:45:00 PM »
Why fly off the US coast and gather electronic signals, instead, rent an RV and drive around the whole country gathering intelligence info.  That's the difference.  You wouldn't get away with that in China, hell, you couldn't even hold a picnic without informing the local party "administrator".

-Soda

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2001, 02:53:00 PM »
Ok, here comes the tacky questions no one else seems to have asked, much less answered...

I thought all US Spy Planes and crew were supposed to destroy their craft, equipment and injest that little poison pill they carry around?  I've talked to a few friends that flew SR-71s and the type, and they are kinda perplexed that a gem of a US Spy Craft would opt to go land in "enemy" territory rather than ditch  the bird.

Personally, and Im sure I stand alone on this, I do not understand why they didnt ditch.  Its one thing to rescue a crew at sea and such, and have a valuable aircraft destroyed and sunk.  Its another thing to land at a hostile base and expect them to honor UN and International Law, especially when history shows they tend to not do as they say they will.

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Offline Fatty

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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2001, 02:56:00 PM »
Well, for starters it's not a spy plane.  It doesn't sneak over, avoiding or trying to outrun anything that tries to intercept it.  It's there in the open for everyone to see, and nobody disguises what it is.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2001, 03:04:00 PM »
...and that "spy" thing is an important point with respect to the mental state of the hostages.

You can bet every time the media uses the word "spy" that the interrogators play the tape for the crew and make threats.

It gives the interrogator an edge. Wish they would stop that.

LePaul what you are talking about is called "Tactical Doctrine". It's the in-house "rules of the game" for Recon flights. Each service has its own and they may be airplane specific.

In the old Cold War days, the Tac Doctrine was pretty much what you suggest. Who knows what it is now.

I have to believe that the EP-3 was in contact with their mission supervisor who was sitting behind a desk somewhere.

If questions are asked, that's the person to start with.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2001, 03:08:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
...and that "spy" thing is an important point with respect to the mental state of the hostages.

You can bet every time the media uses the word "spy" that the interrogators play the tape for the crew and make threats.

It gives the interrogator an edge. Wish they would stop that.

BINGO!!

I can only guess that the term "reconnaissance aircraft" would not draw as many ratings or the media fears the general public is too stupid to realize what type of aircraft that is...

Eagler
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funked

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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
Toad, the Russians still do the same kind of flights that the EP-3 was doing, just not as frequently as they used to.  And they still have some "trawlers" to follow our ships around, and just last Fall they ran a mock attack on a CV group.  This stuff has gone on since the end of WW2 and normally nobody gets hurt, as long as everybody stays within the required geographical boundaries.  Unfortunately it seems most of the old pros are gone and the new kid on the block doesn't know how to play the game too well yet...

Offline sling322

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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »
Apparently one of my neighbors was on that plane.  I got home last night from work after being gone all weekend to discover TV news vans all over the place.  I asked my sister what the deal was and she tells me that they are hanging around the neighborhood because one of the hostages lives in our area.  

I dont know the guy or anything but its about time that an end was found for this situation.  Then maybe the news crews can get back to doing something more constructive.  I understand all of them wanting to do a live shot from the front yard of one of the hostages just for the shock value, but I dont think they are helping the family any by hanging out all night and day.

It was really strange to me this morning as I left for work to realize how "newsworthy" it is for them to film the guy's kid cutting the grass.  

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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2001, 09:10:00 PM »
Well, some interesting developments today.

Apparently they want an apology from us for starters.  Not sure what we're supposed to say really.  I guess something along the lines of "Gosh, I'm sorry your pilot hit our plane, causing us to land in hostile territory with busted props, no flaps, and no airspeed indicator."

Word has gotten to the media that this particular pilot has been reportedly hotdogging surveillance aircraft for a few weeks now.  I guess he saw "Top Gun" one too many times.

The ex-Ambassador to China said that there's a good chance the military did not communicate clearly to their government just what in the hell really happened, so the government is going on what they were told by the military.

I imagine the last thing the military would want to do is tell their leaders that one of their fiestiest pilots was "shadowing" an American surveillance aircraft, and took it just a bit too far, taking himself out of the play, and damaging the American craft, forcing it to do an emergency landing.

Now that they've apparently taken whatever their military leaders told them at face value, and they've acted on that officially in their correspondence with the U.S., they're kind of between a rock and a hard place.

The Chinese Ambassador said the U.S. needs to apologize, and not fly surveillance missions off the coast of China.  He tried to make some allegory about people driving by other people's houses, but it wasn't working too well.

The EP-3 looks like toejam.  Also apparently they were able to have 10-15 minutes to destroy the equipment, and reportedly were in contact with their controllers, who actually gave them permission to land instead of ditching.  This is all a result of watching TV, so feel free to doubt it's validity, but it all sounded pretty interesting.

Obviously, as I think Toad may have mentioned before, I think the main problem is that these guys have no idea how to play the spy game.  Some congressman said that we shadow the Russians all the time, and if any of our planes came in contact with an "enemy" aircraft doing one of those missions, it would be the end of his career.

Maybe we ought to make them a deal, and teach them how to be a super power and deal with ongoing surveillance after they give us our crew and aircraft back.

Be interesting to see how this turns out.

Mk

Offline flakbait

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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2001, 09:32:00 AM »
Good book about surveilance and FUBARs during and after the Cold War:

Blind Man's Bluff
ISBN # 6-06-103004-X
$7.99 US

Granted it's about subs, and not planes, but it gives you one heck of an idea of what went on. From what they say, Naval Investigations was pretty peeved about it being published. One sub captain followed a Yankee-class boomer for something like 45 days. Naturally he was rewarded big time. The sub captain who got too close to an Echo-II class ended up being involved in a rather bad fender bender. Nearly ripped the sail off the sub and what was left had parts of one of the Echo's screws stuck in it.


As for the difference between Spy and Recon planes. A Spy plane is purpose-built to do just that; fly over the enemy, not get seen, and take photos of stuff the bad guy wants to keep secret. Recon planes are just Boeing 700-series airliners modified to heck and gone to sniff out things. Kinda like the P-3 Orion; it snoops, it poops, and it's visible for hundreds of miles.


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Flakbait [Delta6]
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I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond

   

[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 04-05-2001).]

Sturm

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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
Los Alamos ring a bell?

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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
How about Iran?

hostages are hostages. My fear is that this issue will get old and moldy and lose it's newsworthiness. We need to strike while the iron is hot and we have the backing of the US population, make them and the rest of the world think twice b4 they mess with us in the future.

Eagler

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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2001, 10:23:00 AM »
Toad - I made a more detailed reply in another topic.

War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.