Author Topic: Using the E key to cut power....  (Read 2188 times)

Offline Widewing

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Using the E key to cut power....
« on: October 10, 2005, 12:31:08 AM »
I understand that not having a dedicated throttle, slider or wheel is a handicap. Therefore, I understand why someone would simply kill the engine to throttle back rather than tap the throttle keys like a madman.

However, in the real world this was not an option. In flight, you could consider the E key as a magneto switch. In real fighters, you never shut down an engine by simply switching off the magnetos. Why? Because, while the spark is off, the carb is still pumping fuel into the intake manifold. This fuel accumulates unburned in the cylinders. When you switch the mags back on one of several things will happen:

1) Your plugs are fouled, meaning the engine may never restart, and if it does, odds are you will have a major power loss and/or:
2) The fuel ignites and the resulting detonation blows the exhaust stacks off or backfires through the intake, with a possiblity of engine damage and even a fire.

Add to that the problem of the fuel washing the oil from the cylinder walls, which can lead to broken rings and in extreme cases, can lead to engine failure.

The correct way to shut down an engine is by moving the mixture lever to the idle cut-off position. This cuts the flow of fuel and that fuel in the manifold is burned.

However, in-flight things are not as simple as pushing the lever back up to lean or rich. The engine likely will not instantly start up. And there's the little problem of manipulating mags and mixture while fighting for one's life.

There are other, game related issues.

Some fighters respond differently than others to cutting the engine(s) with the E key. With the Spitfire, you can simply toggle the engine off and on and have instant power available. Not so with the P-38. You must go through the entire start-up sequence to get power back. This is a programming flaw. Every aircraft should have to go through the start-up sequence, not just some.

Then there is the argument that cutting power with the E key is no different that cobbing back the throttle. This is not true. I tested the snot out of this tonight and using the E key vs the throttle resulted in quicker reduction of speed. Flying a SpitV, I would allow speed to build to 250 mph. At precisely that speed, I hit the E key and measured the time required to decelerate to 200 mph. I did the same using the throttle. My results showed that it took 7.4 seconds to slow down using the E key and 7.7 to 7.8 seconds using the throttle. Not a lot, but in a really close fight it could be the difference. So why does the E key slow you faster? It takes 0.3-0.4 seconds to move the throttle to idle, whereas the E key is instantaneous. Likewise, it takes the same time to push the throttle fully forward as it did to pull it off. Again, the E key provides for instant power. If this is done 4 or 5 times in a fight, a measurable difference can be expected.

This whole issue would be moot if all the aircraft responded accurately to shutting down the motor in flight. For those guys without a throttle slider/wheel or even a separate throttle; they would be forced to get one or suffer with having to tap the +/- keys like crazy.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline mussie

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 03:00:29 AM »
His right,
I was riding my GSX1100E and it suddenly died going down hill, I kept rolling for about ten seconds before I realise that I had hit the kill switch By accident

I flicked it back on and the old bike gave the most almighty bang, it blew a 8 inch square hole in the exhaust.

The whole made the dam thing so loud that It hurt my ears riding at crusing speed on the freeway.

But dam It sounded cool ideling at the lights.

Offline Wilbus

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 05:35:32 AM »
Agree, they should definatly have to go through the whole start up sequence.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Kweassa

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2005, 06:11:16 AM »
I agree too.

Offline Bruno

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2005, 07:15:04 AM »
I posted htis int he other thread as well:



I recently read an article on 'shock cooling' as a result of engine idle, engine off while in flight. Cold air rushing across the engine caused them to cool unevenly, in some cases cracks were observed (this on idle) in areas on the engine.

Aircraft like the 109 and Stuka etc.. were restricted from 0 throttle dives (109 min rpm was 800 rpm). This may have had something to do with synchronization for the MGs but I have read where shock cooling caused issues with the DB engine. So much so that 109 Jabo pilots were trained similarly to those in Stukas about not throttling back to 0, let alone turning off their engines.

I imagine the impact of shock cooling will be even worse on air cooled engines.

Offline Ghosth

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 07:32:15 AM »
Widewing I suspect when the new spits are released they'll be like the p38 is now.  It does take time to work through the entire stable of Aircraft.

Agree that it shouldn't just cut & go again.

Offline Schatzi

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2005, 07:43:47 AM »
I have never cut engines on Spits. And since im not having the E key mapped to joystick, i guess the time it would take me to remove my hand from stick to cut eng and swich it on again later would nullify the 'advantage'. I dont know if its really an advantage or if it just appears to be one.

What i *did* do though, not neccessarily conciously and deliberatly, was using the eng cutout when pulling negative Gs in a Hurri Mk1, usually with throttle idle anyway (on attempted overshoots). Hurr1 does go through the startup sequence after cutouts, even worse, if the cutout time was too long, the engine is shut of completly and needs to be restarted manually (E).


I still think it should be possible to kill eng inflight, but agree that the usual startup sequence should be implemented.
21 is only half the truth.

Offline Wilbus

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2005, 08:34:02 AM »
Yup should be possible to kill engine in flight, but pherhaps (in ToD atleast) with some more "cons" then just the 2 or 3 second start sequence.

Would be nice...
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline frank3

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2005, 10:05:48 AM »
<-------- Agrees


We should also have more engine settings :)

Offline Schatzi

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2005, 10:24:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by frank3

We should also have more engine settings :)



While i would love to have those, i think it would make game too complicated for beginners (some newbies - including myself - have never flown a flight sim before, and AH is already very hard to learn as it is)
21 is only half the truth.

Offline frank3

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2005, 10:36:46 AM »
Actually I find Aces High very newb-friendly compared to other flight-sims!

But we must not make it much harder to use I agree

Offline kevykev56

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2005, 11:41:09 AM »
A check box for

"Engine Managment Controls"

Much like auto takeoff, or combat trim.

an A/C using auto engine managment would suffer a 5% penalty in performance. Newbs can still fly and kill but those who take the time to learn the controls would have the advantage. Much like the stall limiter. I would love to see more engine controls added to the game.
RHIN0 Retired C.O. Sick Puppies Squadron

Offline Krusty

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2005, 11:56:42 AM »
Widewing: The difference in time you suggest may be due to prop pitch. When you throttle back the RPM decrease (Not sure if this is an automatic thing in plane engines, of if AH simulates the pilot rolling RPM back with less boost) but when you shut the eng off that doesn't happen. It's still at full RPM, which means you've got more drag (and slow down slightly faster).

Considering it's such a small difference between the times, I think it's just the pitch of the prop.

Offline Schatzi

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2005, 12:11:01 PM »
No, rpm/pitch and mainfold pressure/throttle are controlled seperatly in AH.

So throttled back or eng off, the pitch stays the same.

But maybe its the same like in a car. When you reduce throttle to idle, the motor slows down the wheels (ie adds drag to the prop turning) as compared to just hitting the clutch/shutting off motor.

Maybe we should ask mechanic ;).
21 is only half the truth.

Offline Krusty

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Using the E key to cut power....
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2005, 01:09:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Schatzi
No, rpm/pitch and mainfold pressure/throttle are controlled seperatly in AH.

So throttled back or eng off, the pitch stays the same.


Try it again :P

There *IS* a connection between RPM and throttle. At any given throttle setting you can tweak RPMs, but if you reduce RPMs too low your boost goes down. If you leave RPMs alone and throttle back, your RPMs go down. If you throttle back to nothing your RPM reduce to almost nothing.