Author Topic: Does it really takes two to scissors? (Read 1063 times)

gatt · « **on:** October 10, 2005, 01:00:53 PM »

I've been practising Hit&Climb techniques with C.205 and G-10 for ages but one thing I cannot understand is how the defender can successfully scissors and get the attacker's tail when the latter:

- has a huge speed advantage;
- doesnt turn at all after the defender break turn;
- shallow climbs away wepping;
- he doesnt get below the defenders horizontal plane.

How the defender can position himself on the tail of the attacker and, above all, often at fire range?

It happens not only during high speed chases but even during attacks on level-flying fighters low on the deck. It happens often with N1K, Spits and La. Is there a trick or it is an "FM' energy management concession"?

dedalos · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:05:41 PM »

Its called AH Phisics 101. After taking the class, you will be able to do a 180 in a spit, follow a G10 -that did not turn in anyway - up and blow him out of the sky.

Morpheus · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:08:50 PM »

Its alot easier to understand what's going on when you film it and watch who's burning E and who's gaining E.

I make my living in the MA by basicly flying deffensively. Having someone in on you with more E or alt or both as an advantage and then slowly take that advantage away. It may seem like they've become co-E with you but in reality all they've done is made you burn just enough E to close the advantage gap between you and them enough to hang on and get a quick shot.

And the shots do not last long, that's why I said quick. Because if you get 2 seconds to shoot after an over shot that's a long time.

gatt · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:17:19 PM »

Dedalos,

hmmmm, lag turns could be the answer .. who knows. However, what you describe happens even when during the merge there is almost no separation.

TW9 and Morph,

I really avoid to manuver sharply and to find myself below the defender. How can he do two break turns, pull up the nose and find the time to shoot (and sometimes ping?)

Morpheus · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:20:01 PM »

Quote

I really avoid to manuver sharply and to find myself below the defender. How can he do two break turns, pull up the nose and find the time to shoot (and sometimes ping?)

All he has to do is time your arival infront of his guns and pull the trigger at the right time to get hits on you. Its not all that difficult to get kills on a con like this after you get the timing down.

hitech · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:22:15 PM »

gatt: FILM YOUR FIGHTS. And you will find out how.

HiTech

Bronk · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:34:58 PM »

I am almost willing to bet he is getting barrel rolled.
Chaseing target in a nose down low g turn. Then barrel roll back to the opposite direction.
I can manage to get on attackers 6 but my gunnery isn't good enough yet to pop them as they over shoot.

Bronk

dedalos · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2005, 02:06:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by gatt
Dedalos,

hmmmm, lag turns could be the answer .. who knows. However, what you describe happens even when during the merge there is almost no separation.

TW9 and Morph,

I really avoid to manuver sharply and to find myself below the defender. How can he do two break turns, pull up the nose and find the time to shoot (and sometimes ping?)

I can't fly 109s or 190s so this not something done to me, but something I do to them. The only way to avoid (the possiblity of) geting your tail shot off is to go into a spiral clime, but if the spit has enough speed, there is stil time for a quiqe shot.

The safest thing I have experienced (when I am not able to even think about taking a shot) is don't pull up. Go straight for a second or two, then go up or try the spiral. I was never able to get a shot at anyone doing that.

PS.
Don't listen to anything Levi has to say. He is not human. The only way to survive is to stay 6K away from him.

pellik · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2005, 02:08:20 PM »

Keep in mind that your taking your eyes off your target as soon as you realize you're not going to get the shot. The thing your missing is that he is turning back in line with your plane before you reach him, such that about the time you actually overshoot he's already lining up on you. You're faster then him, and his bullets are faster then you.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2005, 02:17:30 PM »

It's an angles thing. If a defender dodges one direction and then reverses back into you, and you attempt to turn into him for a shot, then voila... you have just cut the number of degrees and the energy he used to get a shot on you in half. Thus it looks as if he should not have the energy for a firing solution, but essentially you've scrubbed off some of your own energy and kept him from scrubbing off all of his own, and you have also minimized the amount of turning required for a guns solution on you. In this scenario you are in serious trouble regardless of your speed.

-- Todd/Leviathn

gatt · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2005, 03:20:40 PM »

Great replies! I understand how they do it but dont understand if it is realistic or not.

BTW, sometimes I think theres little room in AH (sure after 1.01) for the old B&Z, Hit&Run/Climb tactics. I still find weird how a/c can pull up their noses, climb and fire no matter how fast and skilled (in E-managing) is the attacker. I'm of the old school, I fly mainly 205 and G-10 and usually dont pull up my nose and manuver sharply, but I realized I can do it quite easily.

And yes, I miss the old FM where T&Bers were T&Bers and B&Zers were B&Zers

!

715 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2005, 07:48:39 PM »

Simple math: lets suppose he is slow, say 350 mph and you are very fast, say 450 mph. Lets suppose you don't maneuver much and keep your speed (which means you are not likely to line up your guns on him) . He, on the other hand is trying to time his maneuver to come out on your six as you pass. He can hit you up to 800 yds. At the differential speed of 100 mph it takes 800 yds/100 mph = 16 seconds for you to get out of range. 16 seconds is an eternity for him to get a shot off on you. Try counting out 16 seconds: do you really want to be in his sights that long?

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2005, 07:59:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bronk
I am almost willing to bet he is getting barrel rolled.
Chaseing target in a nose down low g turn. Then barrel roll back to the opposite direction.
I can manage to get on attackers 6 but my gunnery isn't good enough yet to pop them as they over shoot.

Bronk

I'd be willing to bet the same thing. and the reason the defender ends up on the attackers 6 is because the attacker has such an E advantage. And there are a number of moves a defender can make that puts the defender on the attackers 6 and within gunnery range.

When diving on a defender haveing an E advantage can be not an advantage at all but a liability.

Myself personally I prefer my opponent to start higher then me.
It often breeds overconfidence. Next thing you know. the hunter is the hunted

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2005, 08:09:27 PM »

Barrel Rolls force the overshoot. Most of them I have seen (against me and others) the Roller tries to line his Field of Fire up with the other plane's path.

Yes, he can get on his 6, but making that shot when the roller is going 200-250 and you're going 450 will be damn near impossible. Sort of like shooting a Torp at the carrier from Aft.

icemaw · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2005, 09:30:41 PM »

Sounds like and offensive barrel roll. Who the hell is the master of that.
Damn cant think of his handle right now lev or morph should know. Won the 2v2 at the cons with eagl. Man you come in on his 6 you think your saddled up. He goes this way you go that way look back and guess what your dead.