Author Topic: Puerto Rico (Read 1370 times)

Animal · « **on:** July 08, 2001, 03:58:00 AM »

http://www.audiogalaxy.com/pages/thread.php?&t=1560426

A discussion I found. Bunch of uninformed love muffines trying to discuss a serious topic. Those kinds of discussions really belong to this forum (where some smart people can read it)

I replied as Rastafarianraver (down in the bottom). I am open minded about your opinions too, and would like to hear them, to see your points and clarify if nessesary.

-Animal[/i]

P.s: I am not an independentist (yet)

mrfish · « **Reply #1 on:** July 08, 2001, 05:59:00 AM »

well rastafarian raver i think that.....

errr... i forgot pass the ganja mon....and for cryin out loud animal lose the unicycle eh?

StSanta · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »

Seems like during the last election thingie, few wanted US statehood.

Even fewer wanted independence.

Whatever PR does, it should not make the break from the US in a bad way - the US is a HUGE trade partner for PR and should they impose some form of sanctions, the PR economy would suffer heavily. The import/export balance is excellent as it is, but I have a feeling the overall economy isn't.

I.e 5.2% inflation, 11% unemployment, income some 2-3 billion US dollar less than expenditures.

I'd say PR could do just fine without the US, provided that the relationship remains warm. Like it or not, PR is much more dependent of the US than the other way around, and in the bg old world, the guy with the most power is the boss in the neighborhood.

I say let the population speak, and they have. Have a referendum in a few years time again and see if things have changed.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2001, 12:25:00 PM »

I don't know that the US really wants Puerto Rico as a state. We'd have to sink a ton of money into it and we'd lose the cheap labor rates.

The fact that Puerto Rico doesn't really want to become a state means we don't have to say it out loud.

Personally, I'd like to see it become the first official Spanish as a first language state in the US.

AKDejaVu

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2001, 12:41:00 PM »

Oh.. and I don't think there would be an economic embargo of Puerto Rico if they were to go for more independance. Its no Cuba.

If Puerto Rico were to make a clean break, they'd need to have multi-nation trade alliances in place prior. They'd also need to have a decent percentage of citizen owned buisnesses dealing with export items... say 30% or better. It is no good to Puerto Rico if only the income generated by salaries stays in the country... they need to corperate $$$ too.

AKDejaVu

Toad · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2001, 02:15:00 PM »

Independence or Statehood? A choice to be made by those that live there I would think.

They've certainly been a US Commonwealth long enough to deserve Statehood if that's what the population desires.

They certainly deserve Independence if the population feels that is more desirable.

My only request would be to "do or don't". Make a decision, stick with it, be accountable and responsible for it.

I'd HATE to see a vote for Statehood followed by some more revolutionary movements for Independence that generated violence. (I think that is a possibility, too. Who wants to see the US Federal Government trying to counter an Independence movement in one of its States? We did that once already, I think. I doubt anyone wants to see it again.)

I'd HATE to see a vote for Independence followed by pleas for return to Commonwealth status if it didn't work out the way folks planned. Or pleas for ever-increasing aid ($) to make it work.

Figure out what you want to do and DO IT.

My guess is that the vast majority of the US taxpayer population would go along with that without a squeak.

Overall, seems like a pretty good deal the way it is. <shrug>

Why would the population want to mess with it? Because the Navy practices on Vieques? That's taking a major hit for a minor issue, IMO. What insufferable burden does Commonwealth status engender that would make one want to give up the benefits?

I've seen estimates ranging between $10 billion and $13 billion in cost to the US federal treasury and U.S. taxpayers with no corresponding or offsetting federal tax revenues.

Congress provided tax incentives for American corporations that would have been unconstitutional in the fifty states under the Uniformity Clause. American corporations operating on the island shield some of their earnings from federal income taxation; under Section 936 of the Internal Revenue Code the deal got even better. We're talking MAJOR jobs as a result.

What present State in the US wouldn't LOVE to have these deals?

I guess my question is what is so onerous about Commonwealth status that makes it worth giving up a $10 Billion free subsidy every year?

I don't live there and have only visited a few times so I don't know. Guess the Puerto Ricans will have to figure that one out.

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

Fatty · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2001, 02:52:00 PM »

I'm curious on real local opinion of the bombing practices Animal. We used to fish around an island used for practice in north Florida (would even go ashore and pick up scraps), and they're already looking at several places here in Texas as replacement.

Seems like it's an interpretation that it's because PR is a place that can be abused with no regard to their opinions on the matter, but I'm not sure that's accurate looking from the outside in. Of course if they don't want it I'm fine if they put it down the road from me instead.

Fatty · « **Reply #7 on:** July 08, 2001, 02:57:00 PM »

Further on statehood, I think being a commonwealth feeds a lot of that animosity I mentioned above. While there are real, tangible benifits to being a commonwealth (monetary foremost), I don't think you'll ever escape the suspicion on every mainland decision as in some way being eploiting.

I've always wanted statehood for PR mainly for that reason, to have PR on equal standing with the other states. It'll have to wait until it's voted though, or you're looking at some very real revolutionary ingrediants. So I'll just stick to trying to convince Puerto Ricans to vote for statehood.

Animal · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2001, 03:47:00 PM »

I would normally have no trouble with US military practices here in PR. However, Vieques was going a lil' too far.

Vieques is a BEAUTIFUL island paradise. Whats left of it. In contrary to other places the US Armed Forces practice, Vieques is very populated, and the bombings and whatever else they do, take place just a few miles from civilian homes. There is a very high rate of Cancer and other strange problems in the Vieques population.

Mind you, most of wich are poor people who cant just pack their bags and move somewhere else. They have lived in harmony with the Navy for many years, but in the last few years, its when the NAVY has become really savage.

I gotta go now, will continue later.

DizzyJoe · « **Reply #9 on:** July 08, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »

On independence, PR isn't anywhere near self-sufficient, and the people know this and voted accordingly. If it were, there would be very little migration to the mainland. Over and over again Puerto Ricans that migrated to the mainland will tell you that they would have preferred to stay on the island, but it lacks decent jobs. There's also a great deal of national pride, which makes the statehood movement an uphill climb.

As far as the bombing, the Navy did take greater liberties with this site than they would have with a site in any of the states. Puerto Ricans have no real political power in congress, don't vote in federal elections and don't pay federal taxes, so it's little wonder that this went on for so long. It wasn't until the bombing accident and the involvement of celebrities and NY politicians (looking for additional votes for the mayoral/gubernatorial race no doubt), that this issue came to the fore. George Bush meanwhile wants to build a favorable relationship with the growing hispanic population in the U.S.

The whole situation is a political game. I have my doubts that most of the politicians involved are truly concerned about the people of Vieques.

leonid · « **Reply #10 on:** July 08, 2001, 07:04:00 PM »

Hear ya, Animal. On the other side of the world is another place like Puerto Rico called Guam. A Spanish colony for 300 years, Guam was 'acquired' by the USA in 1898 in the Spanish-American War(funny to call that a war). Now a 'possession' of the USA for over 100 years, there is serious talk in Guam of seeking independence. Of course, all this depends on how important the DoD thinks Guam is to American national defense, but a few military bases have closed down since the 80's - though the sub base, and USAF base are still there.

What keeps Guam above water, so to speak, is tourism. Japanese tourism to be exact. Many come there who can't pay the trip to Hawaii, and there are those who come to visit the old WWII sites too - as well as to give their respects to their ancestors who died here.

If Guam ever did become independent, then it most likely would enter into an agreement with the Commonwealth in Micronesia.

I wouldn't worry about any repercussions from the USA should Puerto Rico seek independence. If Guam ever did become independent, I'd seriously reconsider my US citizenship.

Best of luck to you, your culture, and your island