Author Topic: How does an EP-3 ram a fighter? (Read 4583 times)

Toad · « **Reply #75 on:** April 08, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »

Well, Argent, I guess only the lucky men get to pick how they die.

Hung for murdering civilians or hung for not murdering civilians.

Choices, always choices.

TheWobble · « **Reply #76 on:** April 08, 2001, 04:47:00 PM »

Lets look at russias thinking here..

A: He knew it was a civilian model plane
B: it had its running lights on (how sneaky)
C: it was ALMOST out of their airspace..

So basically he fired because he thought there was a minute chance that this may be a spy plane....and to the russians knowing that there is a 95% chance that they are about to murder a bunch of people doesent offset their "risk"......says alot about how they see the value of Human life.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 04-08-2001).]

Eagler · « **Reply #77 on:** April 08, 2001, 06:04:00 PM »

you guys are hashing out history when history is being made right in front of you..
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010408/ts/crash_china_dc_119.html

"Defense Minister Chi was quoted by the army newspaper as saying the incident showed China needed to beef up its military to defend against ``hegemonism,'' a code word for United States.

``We must turn our anger at hegemonism into tremendous motive force,'' Chi said during his visit to Ruan. "

Eagler

sshh · « **Reply #78 on:** April 08, 2001, 07:24:00 PM »

TheWobble

You forgot about how it was back THEN, background. What each side imagined about other. In USSR it was like US spys on us, sending spy planes (remember U2?), make quick runs in and out of our airspace so we have no time to catch, planning provocations... And we are defending. I hear same story from americans about how it was back at that time. So it was not "95% chance...". It easy could be "CIA trying to fool us sending all flashing big plane like it is civilian but we are not fools"...

Anyway I cant say exactly what has happened then, who knew what and what they were thinking. Was that plane deep in "hostile" airspace due to sleeping ground control or it was controlled from CIA (no, I dont think so). But could you please not use word "they" like you speaking about everyone who was living in USSR regarding human life or something. There are enough stupid and guilty guys at both sides. But you can not say so about everyone. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by sshh (edited 04-08-2001).]

paintmaw · « **Reply #79 on:** April 08, 2001, 08:13:00 PM »

Thanks GRUN , for voicing MY opinion on this matter , I agree 100%
One thing I'm not real clear on , I wasn't aware China was a real enemy . They have Many chinese civilians in our colleges and US. in theirs . we still have fairly good trade relations with them . To start something like this with the US is just to scary .

TheWobble · « **Reply #80 on:** April 08, 2001, 08:51:00 PM »

Quote

In USSR it was like US spys on us, sending spy planes (remember U2?), make quick runs in and out of our airspace so we have no time to catch, planning provocations... And we are defending. I hear same story from americans about how it was back at that time. So it was not "95% chance...". It easy could be "CIA trying to fool us sending all flashing big plane like it is civilian but we are not fools"...

A U-2 darting in and out of airspace at probably VERY high alt is alot different than a COMMERCIAL aircraft going very slow with its lights on at normal COMMERCIAL altitude with normal COMMERCIAL running lights on...is a bit differnet.

Besides..if were were going to spy..why in the hell use a 747 when we have the U-2 SR-71 and planes speciffically designed to do it..

And if they though that maby..by some chance..it could maby be possable...that maby..the at plane was some sort of COMMERCIAL jet flying at COMMERCIAL altitude WITH ITS RUNNING LIGHTS ON that is secretly a spy plane...thats pretty far fetched isnt it...some would say that such "evidence" wich is exactly what it isnt would warrent taking the risk of killing a bunch of innocent people... AND THEY DID IT TWICE.

given the amount of reason russia had to believe that was a spy plane for shooting it down is like.....
Walking down the street and seeing someone walking towards you..and shooting them in the face..because they COULD have been a criminal...of course russia did that to citizens anyway..so i guess maby to them that line of thinking does did make sense.

BTW im not bashing the CITIZENS of China or the USSR when i am ranting or whateve, im targeting the Elitest fruit loops that are responsable for this crazy toejam.

I had a friend on ICQ for 2 years named Peter Valosov (i think thats how he spelled it) who lived in Murmansk, he was a very nice and we always talked about political crap and it was always nice to have a CIVIL discussion with somebody who has an UNBIASED opinion, about crap we saw in the news and stuff...i havent heard from him since he got married and moved though

anywho the point is that given the OVERWHELMING probibility that they were about to kill a bunch of innocent people should have far outweighed any benifit they would see from shooting it down if so happened it was a spy plane.....and you would think they would have learned that the first time.

Maverick · « **Reply #81 on:** April 08, 2001, 11:06:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Argent:
Thats by the by...... you get orders you carry them out or you goto *insert not nice ending here*

Simple fact.

*shrug*

Argent,

Every American soldier, all branches, gets instructed that it is their responsibility to report and not carry out illegal orders. It is the responsibility of every soldier to see that an illegal order does not get carried out. Had you gotten any military training you would have known that.

It has been upheld by military courts and federal courts that merely following orders is [b/]NOT A DEFENSE[/b] to committing an offense, especially in violating the Geneva Convention, committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Mav

juzz · « **Reply #82 on:** April 09, 2001, 03:21:00 AM »

The KAL 747 shot down in 1983 was flight KE 007(cue theme music)... Coincidence?

Duckwing6 · « **Reply #83 on:** April 09, 2001, 03:37:00 AM »

Hmmm i read things here about right of way and such ...

Ok the A/C was in International Airspace, BUT it was within the 150NM extending ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone - as per ICAO regualtion)

Within the ADIZ any aircraft may be challanged and intercepted for identification and then escorted clear of said ADIZ.

Ok ICAO rules for interception:
The Intercepted A/C is to maintain heading and airspeed and follow the intercepting A/C if so instructed to leave the ADIZ or if within the other countries airspace might be instrukted to follow lead to land.

Don't think the P3 Driver followed the lead when he perfomred a sharp turn towards the interceptor, so he therfore violated international rules.

I know the Chinese craft might have bee too close but as quite a few people said this is an old COLD-War game, interception, breaking out, re-interception, etc etc etc .. but WE DON'T HAVE COLD WAR ANYMORE!

Some of the holier than thou US folks in here might want to think about that

DW6
(PLUUEEZZZ don't give me any we saved you in WW2 and we poliece the world so you can keep your freedom stuff now..)

[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 04-09-2001).]

Duckwing6 · « **Reply #84 on:** April 09, 2001, 03:45:00 AM »

Oh btw .. i thought the spy plane invlved in the Korean incident was a KC-135(R?) which indeed is pretty similar looking to a comercial jetliner.. especially at night.
(please shomw me someone who can destinguish Comrcial A/C by their running lights only at night... at several miles distance..)

paintmaw · « **Reply #85 on:** April 09, 2001, 03:49:00 AM »

People sure love to hate the US

Duckwing6 · « **Reply #86 on:** April 09, 2001, 03:56:00 AM »

oh man .. i don't HATE the US .. but not everything the US does is right either.

Neither is what other countries do .. but a lot of folks in the US (at least here on the BBs) seem to think that everything is just and right what has been done.

DW6

Argent · « **Reply #87 on:** April 09, 2001, 03:57:00 AM »

Mav,

So it should be... but i dont know, my sense tells me that he didnt just roll up beside that plane. eye it up and down then cold heartedly decide to blow it out of the sky, all off his own back. Dunno why, maybe i trust too much ?

It also tells me that the Chinese fighter pilot didnt decide to cause this incident and die.

Probably the most worrying thing i heard about 2 days after this... some US senator wanting it as an excuse to give Taiwan the 'arms it needs'... can anyone remember what happened when USSR parked weapons off your coast ?

TheWobble · « **Reply #88 on:** April 09, 2001, 04:23:00 AM »

Every country has its share of toejam..ALL OF THEM...it just seems to be alot of people's hobby to scoop the US's toejam out of the toilet, analize it to death and the boast opinions about it... its not that the US does any more wrong than any other country or less (accept china of course) its just that when the toejam happens it is published before it hits the toilet.

TheWobble · « **Reply #89 on:** April 09, 2001, 04:34:00 AM »

DUCKWING6,

Escorting (harassing) or not there is no excuse for taking a fighter so close to big plane like the P3 that if it moved the fighter wouldent have a chance to react and move...ya ever hear of "turbulence"...as close as the fighter was to not be able to react in time to move would also make it possable that it was also so close that if the p3 hit an airpocket and jumped a bit it could have coused the collision just as easy..but wait..it must have been american turbulence...

and what trumps ALL the arguments is that Wang Wei had SEVERAL complaints filed against him for doing this EXACT kind of shot..there were pictures, videos and all kinds of stuff, official letters about him and his antics and yet it continued

Imagine somebody let their retarded kid drive their car ...and several times the neighbors complained about the kids very reckless driving and the parents did nothing..then one day the kid was tailgating somebody and was about 3 feet behind them going 50 on the highway..they other car made a sudden stop and the retarded kid ran into them..who's faould would it be?

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 04-09-2001).]