Author Topic: Make ord volatile!!  (Read 4854 times)

Offline Cobra412

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1393
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2005, 09:43:01 PM »
Umm they weren't IEDs. They were actual land mines and yes they were firing M60s and yes they were detonating land mines from a distance. Problem was that they were being targeted from both sides of the road and the method they had chosen wasn't going quickly enough and wasn't the most accurate method to dispose of the mine field. They exploded atleast 2 mines with the M60 and a third detonated when one of the mines was hit.

They then chose to use MICLICs to finish off the job. The first one cleared some of the mine field but not all of it. The second MICLIC fired and cleared some more of the mines. The third failed to detonate and they had to place a charge to get it to detonate and finish off the mine field. They referred to this action as the medal of honor run.

IYAAYAS :aok  :rofl

Offline Hornet33

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2005, 10:13:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fuzeman
Didn't some bombs cook-off when a rocket was accidently fired on the USS Forrestal off the coast of Vietnam.
Different war and circumstances but the bombs sure exploded in a fire.


I saw the Navy's report about the Forrestal Fire when I went through the Navy Firefighting School in Norfolk, VA a few years ago.

The official Navy reports states that a grounding plug on a Zuni Rocket Pod attached to an A-4 Skyhawk was not properly secured. The rocket pod shorted out and fired a rocket which struck the drop tank on an F-4 Phantom loaded with 6 500lb bombs. The fuel tank exploded and the F-4 was engulfed in flames fed by the jet fuel from the drop tank and leaking fuel from the wing tanks. The extreme temperature of the fire caused the bombs on the F-4 to cook off before fire teams could get water and foam on the fire. As the bombs detonated they blew several holes in the flight deck down into the hanger deck. The Flight deck was crowded with aircraft preparing for a strike, all fully fueled and armed. The chain reaction on the flight deck of leaking fuel and exploding bombs penetrated down in to the heart of the ship, causing massive fires at least 5 decks below the flight deck. If I recall correctly it took over 24 hours to put out the fires onboard the ship. Many mistakes were made and identified after that fire. The Navy report is used a training aid for shipboard fire fighting in the Navy and the Coast Guard.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline hubsonfire

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8658
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2005, 10:17:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scotlvr
Lets think about this experiment..Take a M2, 50calmachinegun,  speed it up to 400MPH. Let's put a API every 10th round, and give it a 2 second burst. Now WWII 50's fired 750rpm, lets fly the Pony for this so.. that 6 50's firing at 750rpm that gives us 75 rounds for a 2 sec burst. With a API round every 10th round that's 7 API rounds fired. Now..let's take a 500lb cast iron bomb and put it at 160 mph, and make the 2 pass each other at opposite directions.
 Now some one give me the odds of  a  API round hitting, piercing  and denoting the bomb.
 Yes a Barret will pierce a 1" steel plate...that's not the question..the question is all about probability, of  67 AP rounds and 7 API rounds  fired at 400 MPH at a moving target hitting a Round smooth object at just the perfect angle..after traveling 300 yard's ..piercing a layer of aluminum..then a 1" of Steel. I'm not saying it's impossible and it didn't happen but..come on! You have to be one Unlucky SOB for this!!
 Now if you bring up the 20mm..lower Rate of fire and lower muzzle velocity. I would believe the odds would be ALOT worse.
 Now flack...It purpose was to fill the sky with shrapnel trying to damage vital components of the Aircraft. Yes Aircraft was hit by Direct flack hits and went down, wings blown off, fuselage ripped in half ect, ect. Once again what percent of AC was destroyed this way?? What's the odds of a piece of shrapnel hitting a bomb and denoting it? Fire in the Aircraft..BAM Fire extinguishers.
 Once again..I'm not saying it's impossible and it didn't happen but..come on! You have to be one Unlucky SOB for this!!
 Now if anyone doubts my rate of fire or numbers here here's the site I got the numbers from.

 http://www.ww2guide.com/guns.shtml#heavym

 On a different subject..maybe HT should look at some of the Muzzle velocities and Rounds per Minute.;)
 Just my opinion.


Just a minor thing. 750/60= 12.5 rounds per second (no half rounds, so 25 rounds every 2 seconds). 6 guns x 25 rounds/2s = 150 rds fired, not 75. Don't know that it changes the odds all that much, given that even with twice as many rounds, a direct hit in a very small area would still seem to be a fairly remote possibility.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 10:20:00 PM by hubsonfire »
mook
++Blue Knights++

Proper punctuation and capitalization go a long way towards people paying attention to your posts.  -Stoney
I was wondering why I get ignored so often.  -Hitech

Offline Sketch

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1351
      • http://www.arabian-knights.org
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2005, 11:32:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33
I saw the Navy's report about the Forrestal Fire when I went through the Navy Firefighting School in Norfolk, VA a few years ago.

The official Navy reports states that a grounding plug on a Zuni Rocket Pod attached to an A-4 Skyhawk was not properly secured. The rocket pod shorted out and fired a rocket which struck the drop tank on an F-4 Phantom loaded with 6 500lb bombs. The fuel tank exploded and the F-4 was engulfed in flames fed by the jet fuel from the drop tank and leaking fuel from the wing tanks. The extreme temperature of the fire caused the bombs on the F-4 to cook off before fire teams could get water and foam on the fire. As the bombs detonated they blew several holes in the flight deck down into the hanger deck. The Flight deck was crowded with aircraft preparing for a strike, all fully fueled and armed. The chain reaction on the flight deck of leaking fuel and exploding bombs penetrated down in to the heart of the ship, causing massive fires at least 5 decks below the flight deck. If I recall correctly it took over 24 hours to put out the fires onboard the ship. Many mistakes were made and identified after that fire. The Navy report is used a training aid for shipboard fire fighting in the Navy and the Coast Guard.


:rofl  That is on an AFN commercial over here, they have a survivor of it tlking about it.  With some film clips and such.  Most likely the reason the bombs did go off was because they were fuzed, and when that goes...the bomb goes.  But I have heard of that incident.

g00b:  So your telling me that one of these guys that saw a bomber explode first hand, literly saw the bullter strike the bomb and blow up... lived to tell about it?  :rofl  It is probably accounts of other pilots or crew from other planes.  

Cobra: See you didn't say it was mines, those are a different story.  Think of the casing on a mine compared to a 1k egg....

Tails: AMMO and I delt with the stuff when I was deployed helping EOD store stuff for travel to get it out of the populated area.

Krusty: Oh....never mined.  Heres your cell phone back....:noid
~Sketch~//~Arabian Knights~
Sketch's Gunsight Collection 2008
Sketchworks Arabian Knights Soundpack
~Oderint Dum Metuant~

Offline Cobra412

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1393
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2005, 12:58:43 AM »
No I did say mines.

Quote
using 60s to detonate vehicle and personnell land mines in the field

Offline Scotlvr

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2005, 07:00:47 AM »
All right let's look at odds again. Odds of Flack shrapnel or a Round piercing a internal fuel tank or fuel line's and igniting a fire so fast the AC explodes before the crew could get it under control, compared to to the odds of Flack Shrapnel or a Round hitting a 1k CAST IRON BOMB and it exploding? Someone find us a number cruncher and we can settle this quick!!
 Now 1 question I forgot to ask..is this is a Incendiary or a HE bomb? Since incendiary have thinner skin's Odds would be up ALOT, BUT since incendiary are NOT a option in AH it shouldn't be part of the Damage model.
 Also thank for correcting my calculations. I was doing it off the top of my head and was a little groggy.
 Now goob give us the AC #'s, dates and IF they was with the 8th Air force we can find out their bomb load and that will fix everything.:aok  There's a nice web sight out there that has ALL the mission's posted with Squad AC #'s loadout, target's, AC lost ect,ect. This is all Military document's so there's little arguing with them.
 Al right I'm done!:D

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2005, 04:31:22 PM »
Erm... bombs were not cast iron. They were thin sheet steel, which, especially when filled with a thousand-freaking-pounds of explosive, is already under a lot of stress as it is. It's a FACT people. bullets + bombs = BOOM. Maybe not TODAY (get OVER it, there are different standards at work today) but in WW2 it happened.

Offline Blammo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2005, 05:31:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Erm... bombs were not cast iron. They were thin sheet steel, which, especially when filled with a thousand-freaking-pounds of explosive, is already under a lot of stress as it is. It's a FACT people. bullets + bombs = BOOM. Maybe not TODAY (get OVER it, there are different standards at work today) but in WW2 it happened.


LOL...I think someone needs some quiet time.

Sorry, unless there is some empirical evidence to support this happening, I think the odds of it would be extrememly, extremely narrow.  Otherwise, why wasn't it the primary method of attacking bombers?  I mean, why waste time shooting up engines and structures.  Just keep making passes at that ole bomb bay until the lucky number comes up.  It can happen, I just don't think it could or would happen enough to warrant modelling it in this game.

By the way, my knowledge of explosives comes honestly.  I was a combat engineer with the 82nd Airborne Division.  I do not say that to brag or claim to be the expert, but I have seen a lot of things with explosives and I have a good idea about the conditions that will create the potential for detonation.

By the way, things are not that different in the explosives game nowadays as compared to WW2.  Guidance systems have changes and there is a range of different explosives available, but we are well past the "don't sneeze to hard or it will blow up" stage and have been since the invention of TNT.
BLAMM0 - FACTA, NON VERBA!

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2005, 05:42:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blammo
Sorry, unless there is some empirical evidence to support this happening, I think the odds of it would be extrememly, extremely narrow.  Otherwise, why wasn't it the primary method of attacking bombers?  


Sorry if I'm irate, but it's for good reason.

They DID primarily attack bombers from below! It was the most vulnerable spot, and this has been recorded in many ways in many places, and I honestly don't CARE if you were in the military and dealt with TODAY'S munitions. More power to you. It has nothing to do with this. Totally different standards are at work. People who have read more on the matter agree with me. Only those that are applying modern standards to the (primitive) past technologies don't believe that it happened.


End of story. If you don't want to believe me that's fine. But the people that FOUGHT in WW2 are the ones that said this stuff, I didn't make it up. sheesh. I've made my point. I think it's a clear and logical one. Others have agreed with me on the point that it has been documented and it WAS historically done and DID happen. Whether it's ever implemented or whether YOU believe me I don't care anymore. I'm tired of banging my head against walls on these forums. I'm going to log off for a while.

Offline Blammo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2005, 05:59:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Sorry if I'm irate, but it's for good reason.

They DID primarily attack bombers from below! It was the most vulnerable spot, and this has been recorded in many ways in many places, and I honestly don't CARE if you were in the military and dealt with TODAY'S munitions. More power to you. It has nothing to do with this. Totally different standards are at work. People who have read more on the matter agree with me. Only those that are applying modern standards to the (primitive) past technologies don't believe that it happened.


End of story. If you don't want to believe me that's fine. But the people that FOUGHT in WW2 are the ones that said this stuff, I didn't make it up. sheesh. I've made my point. I think it's a clear and logical one. Others have agreed with me on the point that it has been documented and it WAS historically done and DID happen. Whether it's ever implemented or whether YOU believe me I don't care anymore. I'm tired of banging my head against walls on these forums. I'm going to log off for a while.


OK, so simple way to resolve this...post some quotes, accounts, pictures, films, whatever.  If there is as much evidence as you say, then that should not be difficult to accomplish.  Otherwise these are just wild rambling (no offense intended).

Also, it does make a difference that I worked with "Today's munitions" when discussing "primitive" (lol) explosives. Explosives are explosives are explosives.  TNT now it the same as TNT then.  Torpex now is the same as Torpex then.  On and on and one.  Also, you have no idea what I have worked with and what I have not.  You also have no idea of the training I went through (obviously).  You also have no idea of the basic requirements of military grade explosives.  Requirements which have been in place since WWI, by the way.  Sorry, "primitive" may apply to detonators and the guidance systems, but to the explosives, ehhhhhhhhhh...wrong answer.

Provide the proof, if so much of it exists.  That will carry your arguement a lot farther than it is getting right now.
BLAMM0 - FACTA, NON VERBA!

Offline Larry

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6123
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2005, 07:03:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blammo
 I mean, why waste time shooting up engines and structures.  Just keep making passes at that ole bomb bay until the lucky number comes up.  It can happen, I just don't think it could or would happen enough to warrant modelling it in this game.



As Krusty said they were attacked from below, BUT that was mosty 110G4 night fighters vs. brit buffs (since they had no belly guns). 109s and 190s alway made the first attack from above and infront aiming for the cockpit to kill the pilots. In AH you can bleed when you get shot why cant bombs go boom when fire hits the explosive material. I mean thats all that made them blow when they hit.
Once known as ''TrueKill''.
JG 54 "Grünherz"
July '18 KOTH Winner


Offline ahgod69

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
      • http://rebelbattalion.com/CMS/index.php
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2005, 07:38:03 PM »
This post makes me laugh.  Please continue, I want to see if Krusty can prove Sideshow Bob wasn't the one trying to shoot down the buff from below with an API slingshot.

Offline Blammo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2005, 11:34:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Larry
As Krusty said they were attacked from below, BUT that was mosty 110G4 night fighters vs. brit buffs (since they had no belly guns). 109s and 190s alway made the first attack from above and infront aiming for the cockpit to kill the pilots. In AH you can bleed when you get shot why cant bombs go boom when fire hits the explosive material. I mean thats all that made them blow when they hit.


Hey Larry:
I know they were attacked from the bottom.  But they were not attacked from the bottom anymore than from the top, side, front or rear except, as you point out, in the case of the British bombers.  However, could it be that the reason they did attack from the bottom was as you said that there were no down pointing guns (thereby making such an attack much safer) and not so much to get a shot in the bomb-bay?  Don't know, but I still think if the bombs were so easily set off as to be vunerable to gunfire, that would have been the primary method to bring down a bomber and not just one method.  They actually were pretty smart people way back then in WW2 and not quite so primitive as a lot of people believe.

As far as fire hitting explosive material and make it go boom, it has already been pointed out that it takes heat an pressure to make military grade explosives go boom.  If you get enough heat, then as the explosive material tries to expand inside the casing it will eventually reach critical level (because the casing resists expansion) and go bang!.  You could also set off the detonator which would be much more sensitive to direct heat and sudden impact.  However, if you didn't get a direct impact induced explosion, the crew would like just jettison anything they thought a risk of explosion.

It is all about heat an pressure.  Without it, you are just hauling around some reasonably stable chemical combinations.  If the bullet or cannon strike produces the appropriate levels of both, then you get your boom boom...otherwise, you just get a hole in the ordinance.

By the way, this topic really interested me so I have been doing some research to see if I could find anything on enemy fire causing the bombs in the bomb bay to explode.  Aside from the earlier reference in this threat about flack hitting the bomb bay of a Lanc, I have only foundone other that one reference that said, basically, the only way to bring down a bomber quickly was to destroy the flight deck or make the bombs explode.  I would agree, those two options would be the quickest.  However, it did not indicate in anyway that this was a standard tactic or that there was great success in doing this.  My research is by no means comprehensive.  I am open to finding any valid accounts of such things happening.
BLAMM0 - FACTA, NON VERBA!

Offline Skilless

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 578
      • http://www.4remnants.com
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2005, 10:57:26 AM »
I saw an  interview a with german fighter pilot who said they attacked the British bombers almost exclusively from the bottom.  It wasn't because there were no downward facing guns (although I'm sure that was a bonus) but because the british bombed at night and the only way to see them was when they were silloetted against the night sky.  They could not be seen against the background of the earth.  They flew low and looked up and flew into their target from below.

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Make ord volatile!!
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2005, 06:39:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Sorry if I'm irate, but it's for good reason.

They DID primarily attack bombers from below! It was the most vulnerable spot, and this has been recorded in many ways in many places, and I honestly don't CARE if you were in the military and dealt with TODAY'S munitions. More power to you. It has nothing to do with this. Totally different standards are at work. People who have read more on the matter agree with me. Only those that are applying modern standards to the (primitive) past technologies don't believe that it happened.


End of story.


So why did the Abbeville Kids (JG26) HO the Bombers?  They chose the most vulnerable spot genius.  

Slamming SketchCAF for "working in today's military" as an EOD and "not having a clue about WWII munitions", is the most ignorant thing I have ever read on these boards.    Show me your credentials as a WWII Explosives/Munitions handler.  If you can't, then I suggest you spew your garbage elsewhere.

Karaya
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC