Author Topic: Kids, religion, and atheism  (Read 1295 times)

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2005, 09:47:41 PM »
A thinking point....
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18204
if no "R" means no afterlife then ...
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2005, 09:52:55 PM »
tell them this is it and that nothing really matters as in less than 80 years probably they will be in a hole in the ground with worms crawling out of their eyesocks so live life as you are dying, grab all the gusto you can as you only live once - right??

lol lol lol

the fact that you ask such a question on an internet bbs indicates to me that you have doubts yourself

I would inform them of the concept of a God or Universal Oneness and let them figure it out for themselves and that your belief is in the minority in this country if not the world
« Last Edit: October 18, 2005, 09:56:05 PM by Eagler »
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3907
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2005, 09:58:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WMLute
excellent question.

I don't advocate any certain denomination over another.  It mostly boils down to finding one that you are comfortable with/in, and what "feels" right to you.

I feel that I didn't really explain myself enough in that last post.

As parents, we are here to teach, and guide our children.  Not "force" our ideas/opinions upon them.  I am a firm believer of leading by example.  If I want my two sons to grow into honorable men, I have to show them what an honorable man acts like.  It is not easy.  I have to make numerous sacrifces, but hey, that's what a Dad does.  It's no longer about what is best for me.  I lost that option when I became a Dad.  It's what's best for THEM.  I try to keep that in the forefront of my decisions in life.  

In my opinion, a Church is the best place to teach moral values that we have in our society.  Thinking that, I felt that it was important to find a church that I was comfortable with, and was full of people I respected.  I was lucky and found a Baptist church that was extrememly Biblically based, and practiced what they preach.  I have posted here before that it is one of the only churches that you will find in this world, that offers 100% free medical, mental health, and dental services to anyone at all.  They pay for a clinic that is staffed by volunteer doctors and nurses (and dentists) that will not accept money for their services.  It's called Ministries of Jesus.   Here's a quote from their webpage.
LINK

BUT my point is, I found a church that I could get behind, that wasn't just mouthing the words, but backed them up, and that is important to me.    My boys are cub scouts (we've won their pine wood derby 3yrs running heh) and that is another place I feel that will instill positive moral values.  Just like my church pick, I shopped around a couple scout groups before I found one that fit my needs.  

Mostly, it is surrounding your children with positive role models, and morals.
If you can find a better place than a church, GREAT!  I have never found anything that comes close, but again, what works for me, isn't going to work for everybody.

I was most encouraged by the original post.  It showed me a parent who cares, and is wanting what is best for their child.  I only hope they have the will, and intestinal fortitude to make what ever sacrifice they have to make to keep their two children walking down a morally righteous path, and can guide them so they can grow into wonderful adults.


Can you acknowledge that one does not need a believe in God to have morals?  What is wrong with you that makes you unable to do the right thing without the fear of eternal damnation.  If it is the fear of eternal damnation that keeps you straight then you are not what you would like to think you are afterall.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Re: if no "R" means no afterlife then ...
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2005, 10:07:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
your belief is in the minority in this country if not the world
McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world.  Sure doesn't mean that it's cuisine.

Helpful as always, Eagler.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9891
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2005, 10:18:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WMLute
In my opinion, a Church is the best place to teach moral values that we have in our society.


I would think the church is one of the worst examples of morale values in our society.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Re: if no "R" means no afterlife then ...
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2005, 10:28:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler

the fact that you ask such a question on an internet bbs indicates to me that you have doubts yourself
 


Why is the medium important?
sand

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9891
Re: Re: if no "R" means no afterlife then ...
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2005, 10:30:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Why is the medium important?


Well there are FDB's here for a start :)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2005, 11:06:41 PM by Vulcan »

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Re: Re: Re: if no "R" means no afterlife then ...
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2005, 10:38:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Well there are FBB's here for a start :)


It could be worse. :)
sand

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2005, 11:12:57 PM »
Hey.

I resemble that remark.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline oboe

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9805
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2005, 11:37:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Easy.

Honesty.

You may be an athiest, but you can't say empirically that there is no God. You have your suspicions, but you don't know.

"I don't know" says you.... "I really don't think so, but, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, nobody does, one way or the other."

That's honest, right? And that's all you can possibly do.


Nash I think you're describing Agnosticism, not Atheism.

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3907
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2005, 11:46:46 PM »
in a sense being an Atheist is a religion.. kinda ironic.

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2005, 11:54:53 PM »
Well that's true.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2005, 12:01:39 AM »
Godless heathens like you shouldnt be allowed to raise children!






















;)

Just kidding Chairboy, do what you and your wife feel is morally right and decent and your kids should be fine. But dont doubt for second that the kids will pick up on your beliefs early on and prolly go exactlty opposite at say 16 years old.

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2005, 12:28:28 AM »
Hi Chair,

By an odd providence, I'm late getting to this particular thread because I was writing an article on the Christian doctrine of children in the church.

As you are probably know by now, I was raised in a non-Christian family, and attended church very irregularly if at all. Neither of my parents believed the bible to be true, but would have affirmed the idea that there are "some good and possibly helpful things in there" mixed in amongst all the fairy-tales, and that it is important for people to "have morals." These two principles would probably have summed up the religious views of most of the people in the community in which I was raised, including the people who attended the mainline congregations and synagogues on a more regular basis. However, the careful observation that only children are really capable of, quickly persuaded me that regardless of what people said they believed about the importance of "having morals", it was actually the case  that they believed that other people should have morals, while they themselves should be allowed to affirm that they had morals but generally do whatever seemed right to them at the time. So for instance, almost everyone would have affirmed that adultery was bad, but in actual practice the rule was that adultery was bad, unless that is they were allowed to participate.

In other words, while affirming various non-controversial, non-fundamentalist  beliefs about God, Morals, and Religion the general rule was "everyone did what was right in his own eyes." This was true whether the person in question would have identified themselves as Catholic, a Methodist, a New-Ager, a Buddhist, a Jew, an agnostic and so on. They all generally conformed to the homogenous middle-class "do as I say, not as I do" morals of that particular part of American society, and their kids quickly caught on to how the game was played and outwardly conformed in the same ways themselves. The actual societal situation is described with uncanny accuracy by C.S. Lewis in his "Pilgrim's Regress"  That is not to say that there weren't a few exceptions to the rule on both sides. For instance, I never bothered making much of an attempt at pretending to be good or moral, and just did whatever I wanted to from the word go. That approach has become quite a bit more popular since I was a kid, incidently, especially as the conforming influence of the mainline Christian denominations has continued to wane and the influence of post-modern thought and situational ethics has become more pervasive.

I raise this to set the stage for a few points. Unless they are provided with a viable, consistent, and robust alternative, your children will have a natural tendency to absorb the morals and religious thinking of the surrounding culture. Peer pressure tends to greatly assist in that process. So unless you raise them in a self-consciously counter-cultural manner, you can expect them to absorb the worldview of their peers. In other words, unless they are really immersed in a different point of view at home and are willing to take a lot of guff for being weird, their beliefs will look a lot like the belief system in place at the local middle and high-school, it may change in college as they are immersed in a new and particularly persuasive culture, but chances are there won't be a radical change.

Also, please don't think for a moment that your children are in much danger of becoming evangelical Christians in their youth if you aren't - even if you were to drop them off at the local Evangelical church every Sunday. Both experience, surveys, and even the bible indicate that children learn their religion at home, and the vast majority of children dumped at Sunday School by their non-attending parents go on to be non-religious, non-attenders themselves. They may learn some of the lingo, but very few are converted. Statistically speaking, more are converted as adults than by that approach. Even amongst those converted via involvement in most Christian youth groups (such as Young Life) usually via a response to an emotional appeal, less than 14% join churches in their adult life. More often than not, they were converted to the experience in the youth group not genuine Christianity.  

Finally along those lines, what you tell them will be far less influential than what you "show them" as you live in front of them, so faking a faith that doesn't actually captivate your own heart is also usually a monumental failure - they naturally tend to grow up to be like who you are, not who you pretend to be.

All that to say that unless you yourselves are marvelously converted Chairboy (and I never give up hope ;) ), you can expect your children to grow up to be religiously a blend of you and the surrounding culture (although most parents are themselves more like the surrounding culture than they appreciate or would care to admit, if you doubt this ask yourself, are you radically different from the inhabitants of the surrounding homes or cubicles at work?). Guys like me (and the majority of the members of my congregation) who became evangelicals later in life are definitely not the norm.

Here endeth the sociological section. Now for a brief biblical explanation of why the above is the case for the benefit of anyone crazy enough to still be reading at this point. Genuine conversion to Christianity implies a real change of heart, called regeneration and is something that only the Holy Spirit can effect. It also doesn't happen without means, in other words, it ordinarily accompanies the preaching of the gospel. If the child in question isn't being exposed to the gospel (i.e. and by that the bible means the good news of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, not morality tales) on a regular basis, you probably won't see a conversion take place. They remain in the state in which they entered into this world (Eph. 2:1-3) and adopt any multitude of other worldviews - but usually tend to remain in the one they grew up in. So the proverb "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it." works in both directions.
 
- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Kids, religion, and atheism
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2005, 12:48:27 AM »
Quote
Now for a brief biblical explanation of why the above is the case for the benefit of anyone crazy enough to still be reading at this point.


You had me at hello.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.