Spit variants - squadron service dates?

[Bruno]

Some of the Spits folks have claimed that the Spit F.IX was just 'a '42 plane', this is true if you only consider production but from what I can gather in was in service into '43. It may have ahd the smallest production of the IXs but that's not what I am asking.

Does anyone have a list of Spitfire squadrons broken down by variant and date?

In '43 how many Spit F.IX squadrons were there? How many Spit V squadrons were there in '43 (by sub-type if possible)?

How many other Spit LF.IX squadrons were there in '43 etc...

Please don't turn this thread into an argument. If you have relevant data please post it.

[storch]

Originally posted by Bruno
Some of the Spits folks have claimed that the Spit F.IX was just 'a '42 plane', this is true if you only consider production but from what I can gather in was in service into '43. It may have ahd the smallest production of the IXs but that's not what I am asking.

Does anyone have a list of Spitfire squadrons broken down by variant and date?

In '43 how many Spit F.IX squadrons were there? How many Spit V squadrons were there in '43 (by sub-type if possible)?

How many other Spit LF.IX squadrons were there in '43 etc...

Please don't turn this thread into an argument. If you have relevant data please post it.

quit waving red flags before bulls then.

[Kurfürst]

From what information I have, the MkIX was still very rare in 1943, and IXLF beings even rarer.

Qoute from Alan Deere, Biggin Hill, Wing Commander Flying

Unlike the Spitfire IXA, with which all other Spitfire IX wings in the Group were equipped, the IXB's supercharger came in at a lower altitude and the aircraft attained its best performance at 21,000 ft,

According to that qoute, there were only in pennypocket numbers, maybe 2-3 Squadrons equipping with it in 1943, the '1942' Merlin 61 version being the dominant type of MkIXs.

Mike Williams claims this to be dated March 1943, but wheter the qoute is true or 'doctored' I don't know, what I know that Alfred Price also qoutes Deere, but that qoute is different than Mike's version of it.

As for the July 1943 strenght of Fighter command, Spitfire strenght was dominated by MKVs, about 4 times as numerous as MkIX (all engine versions). Note that the MkVI is just a MkV with the same engine, and some provisions for high altitude work.



In short the MkIX did not became the 'main battle line' until 1944, by D-Day there were some 34 or so Squadrons operating on MkIXs, and a few still on SpitVs and some even on Hurris.
During 1943 it was the MkV that held the battle line, facing Bf 109G2, G-4 and G-6, and FW 190 A4 and A-5.

[Bruno]

From what information I have, the MkIX was still very rare in 1943, and IXLF beings even rarer.

Since I started looking myself that the conclusion I am coming to. I have gathered some sporadic information as it relates to how many of which type/variant of Spitfires were in squadron service in '43. The by far majority being Spit Vs and what variant of IX there was in service the majority seems to have been with a Merlin 61.

It appears that if AH is really getting rid of a 16lb Spit Vc in favor of the 12lb Vb AH's then the '43 Spitfire for AH will be the Spit F.IX with Merlin 61 @ 15lbs max boost. I guess the Seafire Mk III could be a 'rough' stand in for a Vc.

If AH is modeling a LF.XVI then there's no need for a LF.VIII because in actuality these will be '44 aircraft (or very late '43 in limited numbers) even at 18lbs max boost.

[Nashwan]

Bear in mind that the majority of Spitfire F IXs had the Merlin 63, not Merlin 61.

[Squire]

http://www.rafcommands.currantbun.com/Fighter/indexF.html

This is a not bad site, as with all sites its accuracy is not 100 percent, but you can get some info from it and x-ref with books.

Cant be just a 42 plane because the LF IX was introduced in the Spring of 43, so thats a no brainer.

Here is what I have in broad strokes for #s:

End of 1942 there were 10 Sqns of Spit IXs in Britain (all F.IXs).

By the summer of 1943, there were @ 20 Spitfire IX squadrons in Fighter Command. Easily 400 fighters, and more than the entire JG strength in France, I might add. They also bore the brunt of offensive ops over France. Spit Vs were also heavily used, but were playing a more supporting role by this time.

By 1944 D-Day there were  56 Squadrons of IXs in Britain (34 in ADBG and 22 in 2nd TAF).

None of the above includes IXs in the MED and ITALY.

I will leave it at that and wont hijack the thread, in any case, thats not a bad link above. OOB info is always tough to find  

[Bruno]

Thanks Squire, good enough...

EDIT:

great link as well...

[Kev367th]

Kurfurst -
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unlike the Spitfire IXA, with which all other Spitfire IX wings in the Group were equipped, the IXB's supercharger came in at a lower altitude and the aircraft attained its best performance at 21,000 ft,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would seem to backup another bit of info I found about pilots referring to Merlin 61/63 IX as IXA, and Merlin 66 IX as IXB.
Further complicating the Spit IXC debate.

As for numbers - unsure, but in service dates are easy

1942 F IX (initailly Mk V airframe with Merlin 61)
1943 LF IX
1943 LF VIII
1944 LF XVI

[Karnak]

Keep in mind that Kurfurst also ignores where squadrons were stationed and what they were used for.  Instead he prefers to see all Spit types evenly distributed and the commanders ignorant to any advantages using the Spitfire Mk IXs in harder fought areas or missions might be.  When he does that he can make the Spitfire Mk IX/VIII/XVI look irrelevant well into 1944.  This is a complete twisting of the data of course, but it suits his purposes and methods.


The Spitfire F.Mk IX was a mid 1942-through 1943 Spitfire.  The Spitfire LF.Mk IX was an early 1943 through the end of the war Spitfire.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Karnak
Keep in mind that Kurfurst also ignores where squadrons were stationed and what they were used for.  Instead he prefers to see all Spit types evenly distributed and the commanders ignorant to any advantages using the Spitfire Mk IXs in harder fought areas or missions might be.  When he does that he can make the Spitfire Mk IX/VIII/XVI look irrelevant well into 1944.  This is a complete twisting of the data of course, but it suits his purposes and methods.The Spitfire F.Mk IX was a mid 1942-through 1943 Spitfire.  The Spitfire LF.Mk IX was an early 1943 through the end of the war Spitfire.

Yeah-yeah, thank you for your opinion, you really added a lot.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Bear in mind that the majority of Spitfire F IXs had the Merlin 63, not Merlin 61.

How many were produced of each type, or are you taking a guess ?

The Merlin 63 entered production only in the first half of 1943. It's very doubtful it would all the sudden replace all Merlin 61 powered MkIXs, especially considering how few MkIXs the RAF had on hand, it would have been a luxury to just throw out the Merlin 61 ones for one with new engine that offered - well, marginally higher output. It would make a lot more sense that they kept using the Merlin 61 ones along with the newer engined ones.

We know that there where 10 Sqns in the RAF in late 1942, naturally all had Merlin 61s. In mid 1943, there were 10 Sqns in England, and 1-2 in the med with MkIXs. It would make sense that most of them were Merlin 61 versions.

How many MkIXs were produced in 1943? Looking at the MkXIV production - a few dozen produced each month at best -, and the fact that it took a year to raise 10 new Squadrons w MkIX compared to the end of 1942, it seems that MkIX production didn't gear up until the end of 1943. Was there a shortage of two-staged engines?

[Guppy35]

Seperate the two issues.  Are we talking purely historical or in terms of what works best for AH including both the MA and Scenarios.

The primary Spit IX variant is the LFIX.  I suppose you could add that and completely skip the Clipped LFXVIe and the LFVIII.

But for the Spit fans that would be a huge disservice.  In terms of scenario use, the LFVIII is the primary Spit ride for the MTO, CBI and Pacific.  Throw in the skinning possibilites being far greater for the VIII then any other variant.

If you go with just a standard wing LFIX, then which armament do you choose?  Universal or E wing?  Or do we go back to the hodgepodge of one version with two armament options?

The clipped Spit was a reality and adding a clipped LFXVIe adds the clipped and E wing variant while allowing for a standard FIX with the Universal wing.  Again the squadrons that operated them were different, skinning options and scenario use options are increased.

Ultimately the 41 Spit Vb becomes a better option then a later Vc for a number of reasons.  Again in scenario use it fits for both the ETO and MTO.  It's lesser performance more then likely is actually similar to the tropicalized Vc used in the Pac and MTO since the performance penalty from that huge Vokes filter really had an impact on the Vc.  Since there is no Vokes on the AH V model, the earlier performance Vb would be a reasonable compromise.

As near as I can tell, the line up that Pyro and company have come up with is the best compromise to cover the majority of Spit variants and time frames, in particular if they do complete an LFVIII.

As for how many and when in service, we'll clearly argue about it til the end of time.  I at one time posted a list of all the squadrons that operated Spit IX/XVIs and when they got them, but clearly that didn't sink in

[Kurfürst]

Yeah, that was a really good list Guppy, but unfortunately it doesnt tell if its F, LF, or HF mark...

[Bruno]

Seperate the two issues. Are we talking purely historical or in terms of what works best for AH including both the MA and Scenarios

Well both...

I don't care anything about the main. Specific plane type there has little impact on overall game play. The main won't get any better then it is now. For events, ToD and scenarios the plane set matters much more.

I was looking for Spitfire information for inclusion into the 8th AF theater. I have plenty of mission descriptions but the reference to plane type is generic. I was looking specifically for squadron service dates / squadrons assignments for each type we expect to have in AH for the first ToD. (Vb, F.IX Merlin 61, LF.XVIe, and possibly an VIII)

The LFVIII is the primary Spit ride for the MTO, CBI and Pacific. Throw in the skinning possibilites being far greater for the VIII then any other variant.

How many VIII with a Merlin 63?

In how many squadrons were they fully deployed (I have information on productions dates and rough dates of service entry but very little of full deployment and specific squadrons).

The clipped Spit was a reality and adding a clipped LFXVIe adds the clipped and E wing variant while allowing for a standard FIX with the Universal wing. Again the squadrons that operated them were different, skinning options and scenario use options are increased.

As it seems the XVIe CW seems to be a given. There is still some question as to a LF.VIII be adding to AH. IMHO using the LF.XVI (CW or not) is a better 'stand-in' for the LF.XI, range being the main consideration. If Spits are included in the 8th AF ToD range will matter.

Ultimately the 41 Spit Vb becomes a better option then a later Vc for a number of reasons. Again in scenario use it fits for both the ETO and MTO. It's lesser performance more then likely is actually similar to the tropicalized Vc used in the Pac and MTO since the performance penalty from that huge Vokes filter really had an impact on the Vc. Since there is no Vokes on the AH V model, the earlier performance Vb would be a reasonable compromise.

I won't argue with that. However, if you spent any time watching folks react to choices like the above you will find that 90% of the time they choose up rather then down (Typhoon standing in for a Beaufighter anyone?). Especially considering the Vb has only 60 rpg.

As for how many and when in service, we'll clearly argue about it til the end of time. I at one time posted a list of all the squadrons that operated Spit IX/XVIs and when they got them, but clearly that didn't sink in

I missed that post, I will do a search...

[Squire]

I remember that thread Guppy, but im damned if I can find it.

Like lightbulbs and batteries, there are always a dozen around when you dont need one.