Updated - Aircraft Service Dates

[Squire]

P51D ... 5-44(CBI&PTO) ? I think thats a typo. Should be 1-45, it was yesterday.

F4U-1 ... 10-42(ETO),4-44(ETO) ? Should be 2-43 (PAC) and 4-44 (ETO).

F4U-1D ... 4-45 ? I gave that date but its only for the *British*. I think it was 4-44 (PAC) before, which was a USN date, it entered service in 1944, there is no doubt of that.

*P-38J ETO date. I cant find any ref that gives the USAAF FGs as being "converted" untill Dec 43, and the dates I gave presumed "squadron sized service" at least, not a handfull of a/c delivered < which it was my understanding the dates were not for, but its Mr. Forks list.

20th FG was not operational untill 12-43. 55th FG did have a few Js, but not a squadrons worth in November 43, unless somebody has a source.

WW- "At the time, the 55th had a total of five P-38Js, only two of which were combat ready."

Btw The P-38s one of my favs, im not trying to screw it over or anything...

Regards.

[1K3]

its fair to say P-38J is a late war plane right?

[Ack-Ack]

No it's not.  The P-38J-15-L0 series was introduced in mid '43.  A lot make the misconception of the P-38J being  a late war plane because of the 25-L0 series that I believe made it to the field in early '44.  

ack-ack

[Crumpp]

(btw which 190A series model more commin in 1943 ETO)

For the Western Front:

II/JG26 is a good litmus test for the mid-war FW-190A's.  General Der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland served in JG26 and his younger brother, Hptm. Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland was the II/JG26 GruppenKommandeur until his death in August 1943.

There are only 2 months in which the FW-190A5 is the predominate Anton, June and July.  The rest of the year is dominated by the FW-190A4 or FW-190A6.

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg26.html

Other Western Front units:

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg2.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg26.html

On the Eastern Front, the FW-190A5 hangs on somewhat longer.  It is replaced as quickly as newer models can be obtained, however.  The Western Front took priority for FW-190 fighter variants.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Sable]

Bf109G-10 should be 10-44
TA152H should be 3-45

[Crumpp]

No it's not. The P-38J-15-L0 series was introduced in mid '43. A lot make the misconception of the P-38J being a late war plane because of the 25-L0 series that I believe made it to the field in early '44.

Which P47, P38, P51, and P40 becomes important well past the first letter of the variant.

Which P38J do we have in AH?

All the best,

Crumpp

[Furball]

its Britain not Britian

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Which P47, P38, P51, and P40 becomes important well past the first letter of the variant.

Which P38J do we have in AH?

All the best,

Crumpp

We have the P-38J-10-LO or P-38J-15-LO. These are virtually impossible to tell from each other as the updates were to the electrical system (dual generators on the -15). We know it's not a -5 because that earlier model lacked the flat, armored windshield. The -10-LO model was in combat service by late December and was the primary varient by middle January. In March of '44, the -15-LO was arriving in large numbers and was fully in combat service by April, replacing tired -10s.

I believe that the first -10s were delivered in late October or early November of 1943. They were hustled to the ETO and began replacing tired H models in December.

In terms of performance, there is no difference between the -5-LO thru the -20-LO.

Below is a chart showing which 8th AF fighter groups flew what and when. A vertical yellow line shows when the individual group were declared combat ready.



My regards,

Widewing

[Furball]

Originally posted by Mister Fork
USA
P-38L ... 7-44
P-47D-11 ... 3-43(D5) to 1-44(D11)
P-47D-25 ... 5-44
P-47D-40 ... 1-45(ETO)
P-47N ... 6-45
P51D ... 5-44(CBI&PTO),5-44(ETO)
FM-2 ... 6-44(ETO),10-44(PTO)
F4U-1D ... 4-45
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44

Britain
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 9-44
Spitfire Mk XVI ... 7-44,7-45(CBI)
Tempest V ... 6-44

Soviet
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9U ... 7/8-44

Italy


Japan
Ki-84-la ... 8-44 (CBI),10-44(PTO)
Ki-67 ... 4-44
N1K2-J ... 1-45

Germany
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 109G-14 ... 7-44
Bf 109K-4 ... 10-44
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 4-44
Me 262 ... 10-44
Me 163 … 9-44
Ta 152H ... 1-45
 

Thats interesting, to see what late war a/c we have from what nations (post 1944)

[Crumpp]

In terms of performance, there is no difference between the -5-LO thru the -20-LO.

That is not always the case though in USAAF aircraft.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Crumpp
There are only 2 months in which the FW-190A5 is the predominate Anton, June and July.  The rest of the year is dominated by the FW-190A4 or FW-190A6.

Crump, the A5 came out April 43. And while the A6 came out July 43, the A-5 was still very active in several Western squadrons (listing losses for A-5s as late as 8-8-43 and later in other units, around Brest and Sicily, these losses were against USAAF bombers).

Just FYI


EDIT: Fixed a date I had put August instead of April

[Crumpp]

Crump, the A5 came out April 43. And while the A6 came out July 43, the A-5 was still very active in several Western squadrons (listing losses for A-5s as late as 8-8-43 and later in other units, around Brest and Sicily, these losses were against USAAF bombers).

I was not claiming that the FW-190A5 came out in July.  I was answering the question of which FW-190A fighter was the most common in 1943.

There were no Jagdgeschwaders flying FW-190A fighter variants in MTO during July 1943.  Stukageschwader 2 and SchnellKampfgeschwader 10 were the only units in theater operating FW-190 variants.  Going after USAAF bombers was not their mission, however it is entirely possible they were pressed into interception duties.  They most certainly were not fighter variants.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/oob.htm

The FW-190G2 and FW-190F2 were produced as the FW-190A5/U8 and FW-190A5/U3  and later blanket redesignated.  Much of their production is included in many FW-190A5 production numbers unless you actually go into the C-Amts Monatsmeldungen and separate the variants.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/werkn.htm

For the Western Front Geschwaders, JG 2 and JG 26 we do not see many FW-190A5 fighter variants.  This is backed up by the FW-190 pilots assertions that the FW-190A5 was not the best performing variant and they were inferior for several months to allied fighter types.  It simply was not a popular fighter compared to the FW-190A4 or FW-190A6.

JG2:

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg2.html

For JG2 it was planned to reconverted to the 109 during this period and was forced to soldier on with FW-190A5 longer than most.  The conversion was aborted.

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg2.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg2.html

JG26 had priority for the new FW-190A fighter variants:

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg26.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg26.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg26.html

June, July, and August are the zenith of the FW-190A5 fighter variant use on average.  During this time most units maintained FW-190A4's and FW-190A6's.

For JG1 based in Germany during the summer 1943:

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg1.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg1.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg1.html

So to claim the FW-190A5 as the predominate Anton fighter variant for the majority of 1943 is just factually incorrect.

Modeling the FW-190A4 and FW-190A6 would be much more representative of the 1943 FW-190A fighter line up.  The FW-190A6 service extended from summer of 1943 well into 1944.  It certainly had a much longer career in the Jagdgeschwaders than the FW-190A5.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Krusty]

SG2 and 10 were ground attack, but they were not just ground attack. They had 190a5/U11s or U8s or whatever the version is that had DT piping in the wings. They were 190a5s, though. They did go after bombers. The 190s did whatever they could, they weren't just limited to a single role. The 190s in the med had DTs to extend their range, but eventually the RAF figured this out and moved things outside of the 190's range to bypass them. Until then they did participate in bomber attack duties.

EDIT: I do remember them being relabled as G-2s, but from what I understand the 190a5/U8s retained their 7mm guns?

Oh well, not that it matters much

[Crumpp]

The 190s did whatever they could, they weren't just limited to a single role.

Misconception.  FW-190G's were considered and purpose built as bombers, not "fighter-bombers".

Doctrinally they required escort and tangled with enemy fighters only in self defense.  The engine set up was completely different among the different variants and the aircraft did not have the same performance as the fighter.  They could haul large loads longer distances though as they were designed to do.

I do remember them being relabled as G-2s,

There is no such thing as a factory built FW-190G2.  They were all constructed as FW-190A5/U8's.

The 190s did whatever they could, they weren't just limited to a single role.

Actually they were limited to a single role.  Only exception is the Anton fighter varient was considered a fighter bomber when mounting the ETC 501, simplified bombing system, and a bomb.

FW-190A = Jagdflugzuegen

FW-190A abwurflast am ETC 501 = Jaboflugzuegen

The FW-190F = Schlachtflugzeugen

FW-190G = Bombenflugzeugen


Could they have been used to intercept bombers?  Sure, but it was not what they were trained for nor were their aircraft built to tangle with fighters.


All the best,

Crumpp

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Sable
Bf109G-10 should be 10-44
TA152H should be 3-45

There won't be a G-10 in AH anymore afetr the next patch.

Your Ta-152 date is wrong:

Ta-152H squadron service  27 Jan '45.
III/JG301 and Stab JG301.
Dietmar Harmann "Focke-Wulf Ta 152", ISBN 0-7643-0860-2

3.45 refers to the largest number of Ta-152's flown in one combat sortie (staffel strength) (12 took place on 2 Mar '45).

JG301 were ordered where to fly top cover for FW 190A-8s and FW190A-9s. The mission ended when the 152s were attacked by Bf 109s. The Ta-152s could easily climb away from the attacking friendlies and did not suffer any losses.

The question isn't so much about first combat but 'squadron service / deployment'.