Messerschmitt Me 410A-1/U4

[Scherf]

Hmmm:

The 410s were used at night, but not as night fighters, which of course is what the Intruders were primarily after.

There were some 410s used as Luftwaffe Intruders over the U.K. - caused mayhem with one returning USAAF raid in particular. None of the 410s used on that sortie had radar though. Also not sure whether any of them fell to Mossies, though I did correspond for a while with a gent whose father said he had, as a boy during the war, seen a 410 pursued at low level by a Mossie - in daylight!

[Krusty]

Scherf, incorrect. Many 410s were fitted with radar and were, in fact, night fighters. Just like the 110 and the ju88, and many other night fighters.

[Scherf]

That's not what my LW researcher friend tells me, but the 410 ain't anything near my specialty.

Old post on LWAG:

I'd like to see their sources...
Fri Mar 29 02:44:11 2002
63.164.170.182

for the Bf 410 with radar at all ! Photos with KG 51 codes would be nice. Maybe in the new KG 51 book in the future eh ? This has been covered for almost 20 years, did they have radar or not. My opinion is that KG 51 did not have radar fitted to their night intruders. The was no room in the R/O position for a FuG 220 set let alone a set in nose of a 410 if you want to call it a nose. Units with NJG 1 and 5 had severe problems with the powerplants and were disgusted with the performance of the 410 as it was pushed aside and the Bf 110G-4 was retained until the advent of the He 219 and Ju 88G series.


and (also from Erich):

The Me 410 was never a night fighter but used as an intruder over England and in the spring of 44 followed US formations back to Britian. there was only experimentation to fit Me 410's with radar but they did not fly operationaly.

Like I say, not my specialty, so don't shoot the messenger. I've seen internet sources saying it was in the Nachtjagd with radar, but as Erich's been researching the NJ for the better part of 30 years, I'll take his word for it. Your mileage may vary.

[Krusty]

Good point. I do seem to recall, however, that there are model kits of it as a night fighter. Naturally model kits aren't representative of the whole. Perhaps it was a matter of waiting for the radar to come in.

Regardless of radar, however, I'd like to add a thought. A "night fighter" was just that... a fighter that operates at night (usually shooting down enemy bombers) with the help of radar. Sometimes it was ground control radar guiding single engined non-radar-equipped planes to their target, then the pilots had to fend for themselves. Sometimes pilots would be guided into area then use their own radar (if they had it). So I think if the 410 worked at night hunting allied bombers it was a night fighter, even without radar installed.

Po-tay-to, puh-tah-to, eh?

[Scherf]

Heheh:

You say pajamas, and I'll say pajamas.

[*NDM*JohnnyX]

Wow, I never thought when I posted this I'd spark such a wonderful discussion. After considering it, maybe the BK5 option would be overkill. This plane probably wouldn't be much different than my loved 110, perhaps a few small changes in performance, so now I'm not sure if it would qualify to be added.

I'll tell you what though, I'd still love to see it in game!

[Krusty]

It would perform better in 2 major areas:

speed and armament.

You can't model the 410 and disregard a half-dozen different armament options.

The 410 could carry 2x WGrs under each wing, and a rotating drum of 6 in the bomb bay, so with both you'd get 10 shots, which is more than twice the 110G currently allows. This, of course, would remove your MG151/20s, if I understand it (the rotating drum removes them, right?). You could get 7mms or 13mms for peashooters. You could have 2x rutsatz packs for extra 20mm cannon (4 under nose, 2x20mm pack and another 2x20mm pack, 8 20mm) or a 2x30mm rutsatz kit, or a bomb load, no doubt DTs could be carried under the wings outboard of the engines.

I think the armament would be vastly superior to the 110G if it had plenty of options.

[*NDM*JohnnyX]

Yeah, but I can even foresee some people objecting to 8x20mm, so I dunno how fair it would be.

But I hate the LA-7, so screw it

[Karnak]

Krusty,

I think that two of the nose mounted MG151/20s are permanent installations so it would lose some 20mms, but not all.

When I talked to Pyro I brought the Me410 up because it is such an interesting aircraft with the cockpit layout and all the armament options. One thing he said is that he'd like to model it because of all the interesting things they could do with it armament wise.  He also thought AH was setup to handle the tail guns aiming quite well.

 Even though I am an RAF fan I would really like to see the Me410 added.

Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
Yeah, but I can even foresee some people objecting to 8x20mm, so I dunno how fair it would be.

I don't think so.  The key difference is that the bombers can shoot back at the Me410 using eight 20mm cannon.  Against a Me410 using the BK5 50mm cannon or a Mossie XVIII using the Mollins 57mm gun they would be unable to defend themselves.  The BK5 or Mollins fighter would just stand off outside of the bomber's defenive gun range and lob shells at them from safety.

[Wmaker]

410 wasn't used as a nightfighter during the war. Nacthjagd didn't use the type. What might have happened during those intruder sorties is one thing but it wasn't used "as Ju-88s and 110s were used" against the RAF nightbombing offensive. There weren't any nightfighter units flying it.

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by Krusty
The 410 could carry 2x WGrs under each wing, and a rotating drum of 6 in the bomb bay, so with both you'd get 10 shots, which is more than twice the 110G currently allows.

That rotating drum was experimental only. It was used in combat trials though in 410B's. Not much reason to include it in AH.

[Krusty]

Wmaker, we're talking about a plane that had almost every german weapon in some way, shape, or form strapped to it during its very brief lifespan as an aircraft. This is intensified by the fact only ~1000 were made. So the rotating drum was used in combat trials but not put into production -- well it looks like precious little that this plane did do was actually done during production. By that I mean it looks like most versions of it were rare and specialized as it was.

Considering the nature of this plane (a flying test bed, as it were) I'd not bat an eye at putting in the rotating drum. It's not like we're making it easier to hit with the WGrs lol.

[Scherf]

Good thread over on LEMB, though I risk flogging a dead horse.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=891

[Krusty]

Need a login for that... Care to summarize what the post says?

[Scherf]

Sorry, didn't realise.

Basically just a debate re: radar-equipped 410s / nightfighter 410s.

Same conclusion as this thread really. Should not have posted the link - bored.



"Move along people, nothing to see here."