Be Ye Men of Valour

[Toad]

Be Ye Men of Valour
BBC, May 19, 1940
First Broadcast as Prime Minister to the British People

"Having received His Majesty's commission, I have formed an Administration of men and women of every Party and of almost every point of view. We have differed and quarreled in the past; but now one bond unites us all -- to wage war until victory is won, and never to surrender ourselves to servitude and shame, whatever the cost and the agony may be. This is one of the most awe-striking periods in the long history of France and Britain. It is also beyond doubt the most sublime. Side by side, unaided except by their kith and kin in the great Dominions and by the wide empires which rest beneath their shield - side by side, the British and French peoples have advanced to rescue not only Europe but mankind from the foulest and most soul-destroying tyranny which has ever darkened and stained the pages of history. Behind them - behind us- behind the Armies and Fleets of Britain and France - gather a group of shattered States and bludgeoned races: the Czechs, the Poles, the Norwegians, the Danes, the Dutch, the Belgians - upon all of whom the long night of barbarism will descend, unbroken even by a star of hope, unless we conquer, as conquer we must; as conquer we shall."

Their Finest Hour
June 18, 1940
House of Commons

"What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."  "

Like him or not, the PM had a way with words.

It seems he had a pretty clear personal opinion of what was at stake.

Just a view into what one of the major policy makers was saying to his constituency.

[NineZ]

Since 1973 in the United States alone we have killed over 40 million unborn babies.  How can anyone think that we are any better than Hitler, Stalin or any other madman who places worldly power, money, and pleasure over the very basic principles of human existence, that being the sanctity of all human life.

Who are we kidding to think that we didnt slink back into the dark abyss.  In this country alone we have a President that went so low as to even leave his country rather than serve it, when he was called to do so.  And now he is the Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces.  In my opinion by his vetoing the partial birth abortion ban he is a bigger murderer than Hitler!  This is a joke for us as Americans to see the splinter in other countries eyes and overlook the plank in our own.

No one is arguing that Hitler was not a degenerate madman and no one has voiced any support for him or his ideology.  But how about some understanding for the duty of a soldier and a civilian for being caught up in a situation that was not all that clear at the time.

We have a holocaust museum in this country located in Washington DC.  We can memorialize the atrocities caused by another country, another madman, how about our own!  

How about a holocaust museum for the American Indian, or the black slaves that were slaughtered, killed, beaten, sold, torn apart from their families.  How about looking into the mentality of a country that has elementary children killing classmates?

Am I glad to be an American?  Of course I am, but lets look at the truth for what it is and not what we think it is.  Lets open our eyes and see the evil that exists right here, right now. And maybe then we can learn to have some compassion in this world, for all people.

[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Toad]

Good, Nine! Real Good!

Let's get this going in here instead of the General Discussion!

Feel the HEAT!

as an added log on the fire, I'll throw this in....

As much as we would like to judge our predecessors based on our own excruciatingly clear, infallible      sense of right and wrong, our present morality...we can't.

For example, the present abortion debate that you allude to. It wasn't even a player back then. Yes, there were abortions but it was CLEARLY a practice that was not within the "approved" societal mores of the time.

Have we slid back into the abyss? Good question, one which each of us must answer within. If so, what do we do about it?

What of Bosnia? Was intervention necessary? If so, what countries had the duty? Did they act in a timely manner?

It's easy to argue...tough to act.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-01-2000).]

[NineZ]

First we have to respect life here, then worry about life there.(Bosnia, Germany or wherever)  Thats my point.  But I know the majority will not agree with this.

Thats okay, Im used to it.    

[StSanta]

Heh, I am on the other side of the fence again  . But, will not open this can of worms  .

<tongue firmly placed in cheek>
I will now go and kill some unborn hens and roosters. Being the sadist I am, I shall boil them in water for no more than three minutes, crack open the shell and then devour them.

Then, maybe, if I get lucky, I shall find a caterpillar...err, unborn butterfly, and watch it fly.

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Toad]

Fine, Santa; argue whatever you wish in the O-Club....but how are you going to work in your "evil Americans" schtick into that area?

 

[NineZ]

Chickens and butterflies?  Tongue in cheek? Smiley faces?

Let me know the next time you have sex with a chicken and create an egg and then eat it, will ya.  

Im talking about responsible pro-creation, about the gift of human life and you reduce it to chickens and butterflies.

Chickens and butterflies arent dying of Aids by the millions.  Rampant sexually transmitted diseases are not reducing the fertility rate within butterflies.

We do agree that the egg comes before the chicken however and with the fact that if your parents would have aborted you wouldn't be here to talk about honor and the Luftwaffe.  But who cares about them, lets focus on the bombed out chicken coops, and the butterfly habitat.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by NineZ:
Let me know the next time you have sex with a chicken and create an egg and then eat it, will ya.  

oh well I'd like to know about it,too...and I'd pay well for teh exclusive press rights  

 

Im talking about responsible pro-creation, about the gift of human life and you reduce it to chickens and butterflies.

Chickens and butterflies arent dying of Aids by the millions.  Rampant sexually transmitted diseases are not reducing the fertility rate within butterflies.

We do agree that the egg comes before the chicken however and with the fact that if your parents would have aborted you wouldn't be here to talk about honor and the Luftwaffe.  But who cares about them, lets focus on the bombed out chicken coops, and the butterfly habitat.

Now tell me...not that I support one cause or another, but tell me.

Suppose, I'm with a girl who I love dearly and of course I want to be and share all with  her. I take precautions, use condon, all you want. But something fails and a baby comes.

Now I am 22, she would be some near me. We both students, and both on moderate conservative families who wont accept well a kid.

Tell me which way is the best for all to go ahead and have the kid ruining a lot of things on her life ,and surely the kid's too?

I ,again, repeat this is a supossition. I've never been there and I hope I never am. But if I am confronted one day to sacrifice my future and her's because an accident has happened...

sorry but I wont go ahead, if she doesnt want. (If she wants I'd accept it. In fact is her decision not mine's)

No blacks or whites...greys...always greys...


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Hangtime]

LOL.. if abortion bothers you; don't have one.

Hey NineZ.. you got tits?? Frankly; yer opinion ain't worth squat unless you can convince the concieving women of this nation of your argument.. it's up to them. Not up to us. Or you.

The overwhelming majority of women are pro-abortion. Yer gonna convince her that if she is raped and becomes pregnant she must have the baby?? What gives you the right to make any decisions about her body? If she insisits that all men of a certain mein MUST be castrated; are you gonna get frosty?

If you get a girl pregnant; a child she does not wish to have, you want the right to force her to take it to term and then reserve the right to take it from her?

LOL.. not likely.

Hang

[Hangtime]

Oh hey.. since we're off on tangents..

56,000 Americans died in Vietnam; over better than 10 years of conflict.

62,000 Americans died of drunk driving LAST YEAR.

Anybody threating to overthrow the government; rioting on the campuses in bitter protest or moving to Canada to avoid the turnpikes?

   

Hang

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 08-02-2000).]

[funked]

RAM in that situation... You be a MAN and raise YOUR CHILD.  If you can't handle the responsibility... then you should have kept your tool in the toolbox.  

[funked]

BTW Hang, those drunk driving statistics are as porked as the WarBirds gunnery model.  

[Karnak]

 

From the book "Finest Hour":

Page 99-100: The arguement that Monday afternoon went to the heart of the differences between the two men.  All Churchill's instincts were to fight on and see what might happen, believing that a show of defiance could change everything.  In language that doubtless made Halifax wince, Churchill told the War Cabinet that he would rather go down fighting than be enslaved to Germany.  But Halifax did not see the world, or the war, in such dramatic terms.  Diplomacy normally offers a middle way: a concession here, a trade-off there.
But Churchill understood something that Halifax did not.  Hitler was not a nineteeth century statesman and this war was not about redrafting treaties or adjusting the balance of power.  It was something else, something outside either man's experience.  It was a war of ideology, a war of enslavement.
In these last hours before Dunkirk, Britain's leaders were as close to caving in as they ever came.  Had Halifax been sitting in Churchill's chair as he so nearly was, then some kind of peace deal might well have been attempted.  Whether the nation would have accepted it is a different question.  But deprived of firm, confident leadership, and faced with disaster in France and the likelihood of terror bombing, many surely would have accepted the judgement of their government.  But Halifax was not sitting in Churchill's chair.  And strangely, surprisingly, out of the mouth of the embattled Prime Minister, a kind of script for the Battle of Britain began to emerge.  Instead of accepting the logic of defeat, Britain would rearm, regroup, and remotivate herself.  From her island fortress she would spit defiance, her sailors would deter invasion, and her pilots would claw the Luftwaffe out of the skies.  Even though her cities might be flattened she would put up such a glorious show of resistance that the rest of the world, and especially America, would realize she was worth supporting.

Page 107: Later in his life Churchill modestly described himself as the agent of a natural force that ran throughout the land.  But that cannot stand as the sole explanation for the peculiar chemistry of this moment.  During these last few days of May, with the army about to be lost and Britain's only allies falling headlong out of the war, with the Americans standing on the sidelines and international opinion convinced that Hitler was unstoppable, Churchill was the force of resistance.  The British people were a lot more fragile at this time than they would later remember - hence the phone taps and the letter openings and the intense official concern about morale.  Without the hope and inspiration that began to flow from the top, then the draining logic of appeasement might well have taken hold once again.
Coming only three weeks into his government, three weeks of constant crisis and exhaustion, Churchill's rebuttal of the peace moves of late May was a determining moment in world history.  For a few precious days he had managed to hold the brakes on the "slipper slope" down which the world was careering toward Nazi victory in World War II.

 

Originally posted by Pongo:

In my opinion...
Black and white really. To me anyway.
One group of servicemen valiantly and efficienlty tried to spread slavery, hate, torture, and pain to the world.
One group reluctantly but valiantly and dogedly fought a war they did not want, in a way they did not like, against an enemy they did not chose.
Both sides were fighting for us in a way. But only one side for our best interests.

Well said Pongo!!!

NineZ,
I thank God Almighty that the likes of you do not hold power in this country.  Your ilk would quickly have us down the slippery slope of a mixture of Church and State, something our founding fathers so wisely avoided.  How long after we start legislating morality before we start legislating which religions are acceptable to the standing government?  How long before we start entering wars, not as peacemakers (however foolish that might be), but rather to support our fellow Christians against the infidel?  I will fight to the death to defend your right to your opinions and your right to state your opinions, but I will also fight to the death against any tyranical government that tries to force its beliefs on me and mine.

The rule is that we cherish our liberties and we respect the liberties of others even if we do not like them ourselves.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 08-02-2000).]

[StSanta]

 

Oh hey.. since we're off on tangents..

56,000 Americans died in Vietnam; over better than 10 years of conflict.

62,000 Americans died of drunk driving LAST YEAR.

Anybody threating to overthrow the government; rioting on the campuses in bitter protest or moving to Canada to avoid the turnpikes?

LOL hang, thanks for bringing some perspective into the thread   .

Now if only I could work in an anti American angle on this...

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-02-2000).]

[StSanta]

 

Chickens and butterflies? Tongue in cheek? Smiley faces?

Alas; such is my life. I take thing seriously only when absolutely necessary. Even then, I try to chuckle. Once, I was a very serious young man, and was very depressed as a consequence. Now, I am much more happy.  

 

Let me know the next time you have sex with a chicken and create an egg and then eat it, will ya.

Ah, but that is not the issue! The issue is I am destroying a life here. ;D

And, my poit about buttefliers, eggs and caterpillars was and is: a caterpillar is not a butterfly. An egg is not a chicken. A foetus is not a person. Even if it was, we would be moving up to the question of right of self determination. One thing I know; to Americans, this is a paramount right in most circumstances.

 

Im talking about responsible pro-creation, about the gift of human life and you reduce it to chickens and butterflies.

Hm, sorry for that. I am all for responsible procreation. Not too sure about the gift of human life; I didn't ask for it and am quite sure a few people don't see it as a gift. My being here was the result of my parents (hopefully) wish to have another kid. Their wishes, not mine. Pretty selfish when you think about it from one specific perspective; here I want something that could very well turn out to be hell for another human being, but, knowing this, I still go ahead. For those of you who haven't been through a clinical depression, the idea of life being a torment and not worth living might be alien, but personally I've known the feeling. This is, however, a tangent  . Life is good  .

 

Chickens and butterflies arent dying of Aids by the millions. Rampant sexually transmitted diseases are not reducing the fertility rate within butterflies.

Running the risk of sounding cynical, it seems like the fertility rate of our species is quite good, even with HIV around. Too good, some would argue, for our planet. Even so, this has more to do with safe sex than abortion, methinks.

 

We do agree that the egg comes before the chicken however and with the fact that if your parents would have aborted you wouldn't be here to talk about honor and the Luftwaffe. But who cares about them, lets focus on the bombed out chicken coops, and the butterfly habitat.

I see your point and apologize for joking around with a topic that is important to you.

I wouldn't know if I was aborted, since I would not be.

As an interesting tangent, popular philosopher Peter Singer argues that the death of a baby is less severe than the death of an adult, simply since the baby doesn't lose as much *actual* value - it loses *potential* value, i.e something the baby does not yet have. While a bit revolting to read and hard to agree on, I guess he has a minor point.

I need to get rid of this damned soap box.

<checks box>
"Made in USA" - go figure. Damned opportunists.

<S!>

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"