The Ugly American

[Toad]

A buddy of mine <a WEALTHY buddy> was looking for a P-40 with a war history. <he never found a good project to rebuild, btw>

Those are pretty rare, but he knew the US had sent a bunch to the USSR. In the course of his research, he sent me a listing of all the aircraft the US sent to the USSR during the war.

While I'm looking for that <years of dust covering the files> here's a little something for Nath.

Staga, I assume <UH-OH! DANGER!> the US diplomats meant for the USSR to use this stuff against the common enemy. Didn't turn out that way exactly, now did it?

Anyway,would that be the US's fault or would that more properly fall under the area of the USSR's responsibility?


Anyway, here's some "lite" info on Lend-Lease to the USSR <from http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x19/xm1960.html>

"3. A tentative agreement

The Russian premier was less obdurate and suspicious at the final session the next evening. Point by point the participants went over the list of Russia's military needs. By the end of the conference the Western representative had guaranteed to send Russia about one billion dollars' worth of supplies between September 30, 1941, and June 30, 1942: 400 planes and 500 tanks every month; 1,256 antitank guns; 5,000 jeeps; destroyers and trucks, scout cars and barbed wire, medical supplies and shellac, food and raw materials; 400,000 pairs of army boots per month. The final arrangement had the mercurial Stalin, as Beaverbrook put it, beaming like "sunshine after rain."

4. The increasing flow of supplies

Within the next two months 130,000 tons of supplies were sent to Russia, only a small part of what had been promised. Unwieldy bureaucratic machinery and the long, uncertain supply routes continued to delay deliveries. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor plunged the United States into the War in December 1941, aid to Russia diminished for a time, but shipments picked up drastically in the spring. By the end of the War the United States would have dispatched more than $11 billion worth of supplies to the Soviet Union, some via the northern Atlantic route to the Russian ports of Murmansk and Archangel and some through Iran, and some also through Alaska."

I seem to remember something in that agreement about the USSR promising to reimburse the US for all that equipment, too.

I believe that debt, like other much more recently added ones, is still outstanding.  

[StSanta]

 

LOL.. "scandaniavia"

Blonde liberated women, yummie.  

 

"Aryan Master Race"

Don't take it out of context, please  .

 

Tell me.. whats yer world contribution? What has yer pissant little pile of icecubes contributed to world peace and democracy in the past 100 years?

We killed French and Brits about 1000 years ago.

But, didn't think this was a pissing contest. Nevertheless, will say a few things.

Denmark is not a powerful country. It has a decent economy, very small size, and comparatively small population size of some 5.5 million or so.

In order to compare it to the US, we'd have to check "bang for buck" - i.e the worth each citizen has produced. Last I checked, the US had 280 million inhabitant opportunists or so
Which would mean that the US would have to do better on a ratio of 50:1. Having seen your tv shows and movies, I'm confident it hasn't been met  .

Aside from a few physicists, writers and philosophers, I guess Denmark hasn't been very world leading. And, to be honest, I don't give a rats ass. My country provide me with stuff and hi tech toys, free education and blonde girls, and that is what life is about - having fun. Continue your pissing contest; I will go out with blonde girls instead.  .

 

I see yer hands out.. odd; you recieved American money and aid; free grants, assistance from the IMF. What have you freeloaders given us?

Are you speaking about me, or other people in my country? And are you speaking of the present, or the past?

Well, we've given you culture, my friend  . And, to Danish Americans, roots, something America doesn't really have due to it only having existed for such a short brief iddly widdly little wink of a moment.

American culture inevitably is a mixture of (the dominant, due to historical past) European one, African and Asian. The majority of people in power are (unfortunately I'd say when one thinks about the great diversity of cultures in the US) decendants of white Europeans.

It seems you forget that the Marshall help money werein large part returned to the US in return for equipment; the US war machine was rapidly converted to civilian use, and the US would need a market unless they wanted a repeat of past failures.

I guess we haven't directly given you anything. Not sure why we should; you do not appear to be in need of assistance. But, if you are, let me know and I will talk to some of my elected officials.
 

Ungrateful louts.

Yes, we are. <finger>

 

A little history lesson. In 1776 there were NO functioning democracys in the world. Not one. Look around now. Who's responsible for THAT? They model those democracys on Denmark or Finland?

There is the little matter of ancient Greece, but I shall not bore you with foreign crap.

Technically, Denmark is not a democracy, but a constitutional monarchy. Then again, I've never claimed Denmark is the defender or creator of democracy.

 

Riiiight. Send me another canned ham.

Here you go. Just put it next to the one I rammed up your processed food exit hole  

Damned opportunist.

<laughing so hard his stomach is hurting>


                          Hang

------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Hangtime]

Yup. we've never met a nation yet that couldn't be bombed. Or bribed. Or bilked.

Of course; we could just send Jane Fonda on a world tour. If she shows up in your Capitol, I suggest you start diggin a hole to crawl into.

 

 

[Hangtime]

The greek concepts or city-states and representative government were unique.. but did not survive. Rome gave republicanisim a shot almost 800 years later; but Ceaser had other ideas and we all know what happened when the Scandanavians showed up a few hundred years after Ceaser. (yah scurvy barbarian bastids) That ended the democratic experiment for almost TWO THOUSAND years. Thats how many generations??

Yah; we led the way for the modern world; and its the dirty dogs and good 'ol boys right HERE in the USA; your former 'euro-trash' so to speak, that gave it teeth; helped it grow; shouldered the arms and came to the lands of their fore-fathers and spilled their blood to save europe's collective asses.

Yah buncha ungrateful louts!!! Ingrates!

The American Democracy was a first; a truly modern concept; based on an ideal from 2000 years previous. Yah; IMHO; America did in fact invent the modern democracy. And if you have elections in your country now; if you have a CHOICE in who yer head of state is, or how you country formulates it's laws you may thank Jolly 'old England; and the United States of America.

(hang kicks staga and santa) Now; stand up and salute the flag of the nations that gave you yer freedom to squeak.

And; as much as it annoys yah santa; I'm glad to see you understand that had not OUR country got off it's collective bellybutton and waltzed on over europe (for the second time) to settle the Hun's hash YOU would not be enjoying yerself right here and now..

Yer welcome.  

Hey; whatcha doin for vacation this year by the way??

Hang

[Dinger]

Alright, time for Dinger's final exam in Fluency in a Foreign Language for Americans:

Explain the following concepts to a European:

A. 1. Open container laws
   2. Dry counties
   3. Dry counties without open container laws.

B. Drive-thru mortuary visitations

C. "No shoes, no shirt, no service"

D. The Pledge of Allegiance (Including the shift in saluting style before and after our entry into WWII, and the addition of "under God" to combat the God-hatin' reds)

E. Right on Red, 24-hour shopping and pitchers of beer.


---
Oh, and Craven, as an historian, I fully disagree with your argument.
The USSR could have beaten Germany without US dollars.  But now we're doing contrary-to-fact speculation about the past, and that ain't history, that's masturbation.  Hell, if I were alive, I could have singlehandedly ended the war.
Nobody has to be "the policeman of the world"; Americans just think that someone's gotta do it.  And, like cops all over the world, America selectively enforces the laws she polices.
The notion that "Amurrica beat Hitler" is highly simplicistic, if not idiotic.  Even if  we grant for the sake of argument, that US support was a necessary cause of the outcome of WWII, that does not exclude other necessary causes.
Finally, is evil something we can measure in some sort of utilitarian fashion?  Is the crew of the Enola Gay fifty thousand times more evil than our upstanding sergeant on his way from Kosovo to the stockade?  Is a person whose paranoical totalitarian state kills 20 million people because they're perceived threats to the dictator as evil as one whose paranoical totalitarian state does that as well, starts the bloodiest war on record, and systematically sets out to exterminate an entire race of people?
Finally did Hitler, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt, or even their general staffs fight the war?  Is it a valid argument to say, "Well, 20 million Soviet soldiers died, in the process they destroyed the German army, but Stalin was a bad guy, so let's give the crown to AMERICA, well known home of the free."  You're supposded to be talking histopry, not the fxckin' Miss Universe contest!

[BagPiper]

Hah, we wouldn't even be arguing about this if you Eurotards didn't have such an inferiority complex regarding the U.S.

Us Canadians always put them in their place, and everyone knows that without us, WWI would have been lost, and if THAT had happened, the Americans wouldn't have been able to win WW2, since it wouldn't have been fought  , LOL!

[miko2d]

 Hangtime,
 The fact that you do not know much about other countries and compare things by absolute rather then relative value makes our country seem better to you then it is.

 You did not save the democracy in Europe and it does not look like you would, neither would many of our fellow americans. How long can you ride on the achievements of (sombody's) ancestors?
 You did not establish the democracy in 1776 and your personal ancestors may not have even been here then. Right now our country is much less democratic than many european countries - did you check the voting turnout from the last elections. Modern americans inherited the system and cannot even maintain it. It is getting worse every year. The laws are getting so complex, that the democracy does not matter in many cases - the beaurocrats are the ones who decide.

 Of course it is much easier to take credit for actions of some long dead people then take responcibility for what is happening now.
 In lots of things America is "better" only due to it's size. Per person we are much more backward then most european countries and we consume disproportionate share of the worlds resources. We are buying brains and can maintain our leadership in the areas where we have it only because of the constant inflow of people.
 If you were to die tomorrow, the life expectancy in US would not be much consolation to you, would it? Why would you be happy with amount of stuff we make all together if per person we could be worse off?

 Also, replace "americans" with "germans" in your statement and your speaches can be easily confused with Hitler's. He also though that it was germans that invented everything.

 I am a patriot of the America and I think that ignorant people who think we are the best in the world just because you've happen to reside here are the biggest threat to it.

miko--

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Naso]

Well said, Dinger  

Go on, StSanta  

I have my flag to salute, if i wish to salute one, hangtime  

If i remember correctly, mr Einstein was german, mr. Fermi was italian miss and mr Curie where French, mr bohr was scandinavian (dont remember), Heisemberg was german, Nobel was Sweden (mmm... dunno ), and so on...
Bagpiper, can you explain why we have to feel inferior??
For money??
Puah !!!  

Sheeee.... trolling post  

[Naso]

 

Originally posted by miko2d:
Hangtime,
 The fact that you do not know much about other countries...

(CUT)

 I am a patriot of the America and I think that ignorant people who think we are the best in the world just because you've happen to reside here are the biggest threat to it.

miko--

As i see, reading miko's and Dinger's posts, there is still hope for future.

Well said miko, wise words.

 

[BagPiper]

Hell Naso, where did you get that from?  I never said you "were" inferior, just that many non-Americans (i.e. Europeans) have an inferiority complex and this is where much of the stand-offish attitude towards America comes from IMO.  

Me saying some Europeans feel inferior doesn't mean that I think they are, just so we are straight on that.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
I'd probably have a handful of southern Europeans as slaves, starting with RAM's sisters

LOL Santa!!! I guess that is the only way you can dream on having them!!!      

NOW...

USA-First "modern" democracy

LOL! you call a 2-party system "modern democracy"? oh man thats FUN!...

I cant stop hearing,from US people, things like these:
-"I will vote for the lesser bad"

-"I hope we had some decent candidate there instead of what we have"

-"if one is bad the other is worse"

-"after hearing Colin powell in the TV the other day, I wish he was the candidate" (OH MY!!!! )

 etc etc etc...

A 2-party thing is not such thing as "MODERN DEMOCRACY", in fact it wasnt nothing new in 1776, Hang, maybe you want to take a look into your books...that was used in Britain for 4 centuries before 1776, when the only north american habitants were indians (and you odnt want to hear what did YOUR ancestors do to the indians, dont you??...  )
...a 2-party thing doesnt work well...maybe it does better in UK because one of the partys (laborists) is a more or less left-winged party (I SAID MORE OR LESS!   ), and the Tory party is a conservative one...

In US there are 2 parties one conservative and the other MORE conservative still...damno I dont know even if the communist party is allowed in US (for sure it was PROHIBITED for MANY years, to be a communist was ILLEGAL and was actively pursued as CRIME...call that liberty of thinking and speech, SIR!)...

So the real chance is...one or another. Here in Europe where REAL democracy is done, most of the times the party in the power needs the ACTIVE support of other parties to do a legitime action of government...its called "pact of government"...if one party hasnt more than 50% on the congress they will be in serious problems (as to elect a president its needed dmore than 50% votes of the congress)...

in US, with a 2 party thing (independents never have counted too much), by definition, there will be ALWAYS a party with more than 50% of the votes...

And that is bad for a democracy. Because basically only counts one party's politics for 4 years while the other party's points of view are rejected one after the other.

Modern democracy? LOL!...that is FAULTY Democracy...we had something like that in XIX century here in spain up to 1931, and the only thing that we got out from that kind of democracy was anarchy and a civil war 5 years later.

So hang...excuse me but you live in a democratic country,yes...but one with a basic fault: lack of multiple parties...

Ah, hang...BTW...dont brag that much about US intervention in WWII...with NO intervention in WWI there would've been NO WWII...

so maybe you only came to put straight something you didnt fix before.

Just a thought.



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-02-2000).]

[RAM]

On the South America matters named by StSanta, he may not name those but I'll do:

-General Augusto Pinochet (Chile)

-Nicaraguan Contra (nicaragua)

-General Batista (Cuba)

-Argentinian Militar dictatorships (argentina)

-El Salvador, support to the insurgents

-Uruguay ,support to the Militar dictatorships (CIA personnel supervised the interrogatories to suspected opposing people to the regime)
(the interrogatories were said to be worse than those of the KBG)

-Bahia de Cochinos (Cuba)

-Attempts to kill Castro (each one more ridiculous than the previous)

-ETC ETC ETC ETC

ETC

May I follow?

[Downtown]

One of my relatives Signed the Constitution, was instrumental in the wording of the Declaration of Independence, and another was hanged in Virgina for trying to arm fugitive slaves and start a slave uprising.

I still think mine is bigger than all of you guys.

------------------

"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[DA98]

Oh, and thanks for helping us in our small Civil War against Franco!

[Hangtime]

LOL RAM.. three words.

GENERALISSIMO FRANCISCO FRANCO

A Nazi. I seem to recall Americans of note had some small involvement in funding his opposition in your civil war.

RAM; you know dick about America; or our politics. All you have to go on is Baywatch and Scary Movie, or the propoganda pushed at you during your socialist/fascist education.

FYI England does not vote in her monarch; and the house of lords don't do nothin.  

If you are just lookin fer a shot; kewl; I can understand that; but pleeeeese.. yer country; out of all in europe has possibly the worst record on civil rights for the individual. Yet you think you can throw stones at us? Old sins?? How's the inqusition; for starters?? Indians? You; a SPANIARD dares quote to me abuses of Native American INDIANS? The Spanish were here killing the natives first; pal. You guys were the real pro's... Who destroyed the Aztec and Mayan cultures?

LOL.. don't tread on me RAM.  

Tell me.. you vote? I mean; do you exercise the franchise?? I do.. I even vote in the furbish little school board elections.  

You ever serve in your countrys armed forces? Ever get shot at? Ever get HIT? How many of your relatives did not come home from a foreign war? Friends?? Neighbors?? What price has your family paid for EUROPES CURRENT FREEDOM?

Yah; I'm an ugly American. Proud of it. Proud of America. Sure; we have some dirty laundry..  and Spains house ain't clean either; nor is anybody else's.  

My arrogance is EARNED. I paid for it. It was pricey; and once earned at such great cost; I tend to guard it closely.

Yep; I'm a patriot. What are you?

Hang