Author Topic: Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...  (Read 1334 times)

Offline Seagoon

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« on: November 08, 2005, 11:30:05 AM »
Hi all,

I had debated posting this in the "Betting Pool" thread, but opted against it as the idea of endorsing wagering related to misery rubs me the wrong way. Over the years I've learned the most unsatisfying and hollow phrase in the English language when applied to national or personal catastrophes is "I told you so."

Anywho, at present the brighter journalists and commentators are trying to figure out whether what is going on in France is in fact simply, an intifada, Arabic for uprising or insurrection, part of the wider Jihad, or a combination of both. Regardless, what is becoming readily apparent is that the current insurgency in France was inevitable for a number of reasons, and that this is merely the open stages of a tempest that is not going to go away any time soon. For instance, very few news outlets have bothered to report that many Muslim areas of France had become essentially unpoliced and uncontrolled by the central government before the current insurgency, and that since the beginning of 2005 there were over 9000 cases of French police cars being stoned for entering Muslim areas.

Two of the journalists I read on this subject who have a lot of insight into the current situation in the Eurabian community are Amir Taheri, an Iranian expat journalist who writes for British and French papers, and Robert Spencer who has been chronicling the revival of Islamic militancy for many years. Here is an article by Taheri that was carried by the NYP along with an article by Spencer, that I hope will shed a little more light on the Religio/Social roots of the current conflict:


WHY PARIS IS BURNING
By AMIR TAHERI Fri Nov 4, 6:00 AM ET

AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start — and the pattern is always the same.
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Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.

The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back — with real bullets.

These scenes are not from the
West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.

The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb east of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans" within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.

By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis." Both Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel foreign trips to deal with the riots.

How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.

Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been present in that suburb for years.

The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something — which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.

Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths — who had been reigning over Clichy pretty unmolested for years — got really angry. A brief chase took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power pylon. Both were electrocuted.

Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.

With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they could get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.

The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the police from French territory. So they hit back — sending in Special Forces, known as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.

Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5 million.

But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80 percent of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these are not the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected areas is estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be workers, reaches 60 percent.

In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions, sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French life" only on television.

The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into "proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.

That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers.

France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.

As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.

In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.

The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural apartheid.

Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.

In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local administration.

A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The French authorities should keep out.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities.

President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of
Saddam Hussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.

That illusion has now been shattered — and the Chirac administration, already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a "ticking time bomb."

It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe that Islam offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should aspire.

So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an adviser to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia" in which Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to create a new cultural synthesis.

The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not address the important issue of political power. Who will rule this new Andalusia: Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?


Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for the wrong reasons.

Amir Taheri, editor of the French quarterly "Politique internationale," is a member of Benador Associates.
-------------------------------------------------

Also, in the following link, Robert Spencer tackles the question, "Is this part of a Jihad in Europe?"
Jihad in Europe

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Skilless

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2005, 01:12:50 PM »
Brilliant article.  Do you think France could deteriorate into another Bosnia?

Offline john9001

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2005, 02:10:14 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 05:28:50 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline GtoRA2

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2005, 03:04:13 PM »
Very interesting read.

Offline straffo

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2005, 04:35:00 PM »
Completly cretin and distorted at best it's incompetence at worst it's pure propaganda.



PS:  Benador Associates is as fair as balanced as Fox news.

Look at this article from dated 03 Jan 2005
Quote

Saint-Sylvestre Trois cent trente-trois voitures brûlées

La France, ses bons vins, ses fromages... et ses voitures incendiées la nuit du réveillon. Avec plus de 330 véhicules carbonisés, la Saint-Sylvestre 2004 n’a malheureusement pas failli à la tradition. Ce bilan, souligne le ministère de l’Intérieur, « témoigne d’une stabilité des phénomènes de violence urbaine » puisque 324 véhicules avaient été incendiés en 2003 et 379 en 2002. La France est le seul pays d’Europe à connaître un tel phénomène, selon une enquête des bureaux de l’AFP à travers le continent.

Dans la quasi-totalité des cas, ces incendies volontaires se sont déroulés dans des quartiers dits « difficiles », comme dans les cités de Sevran, Clichy-sous-Bois, Aulnay et La Courneuve en Seine-Saint-Denis. Ce département figure d’ailleurs en tête des départements d’Île-de-France avec 75 voitures brûlées (47 il y a un an).
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 04:39:46 PM by straffo »

Offline tikky

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2005, 04:42:43 PM »
See Rule #5
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 05:29:26 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline straffo

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2005, 05:01:34 PM »
Yet another expert :rolleyes:

Perhaps one day you will learn to not to post when you know nothing about the  subject ?


Btw SEAGOON I made some research and phone call (I'm not omniscient)  about Amir Taheri etc ...


Do your really think that if I make a post about the USA using document coming from here http://www.nsm88.com/

it will be credible ?

Offline moot

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2005, 05:08:14 PM »
Tikky, what do you mean "OR"?

translation of the above quote:

France, its good wines, its cheeses... and its cars torched the night before christmas. With more than 330 carbonised vehicles, Saint-Sylvestre 2004 infortunately hasn't failed tradition.  This tally, underlines the Interior ministry, "testifies of a stability of urban violence phenomenae" since 324 vehicles had been torched in 2003 and 379 in 2002. France is the only country in Europe to experience such a phenomenon, according to an inquiry by the AFP offices across the continent.

In the quasi-totality of the cases, these voluntary fires took place in neighbourhoods called "difficult", as in the (projects) of Sevran, Clichy-sous-Bois, Aulnay and La Courneuve in Seine-Saint-Denis. This department, moreover, figures at the top of the (Paris&surroundings) departments with 75 cars burned (47 a year ago).
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Maverick

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2005, 06:05:56 PM »
Straffo,

If you want to prove a point or at least lend some credence to a point by posting an article, make sure it's in english or just don't bother.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline Dago

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2005, 06:50:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Completly cretin and distorted at best it's incompetence at worst it's pure propaganda.



PS:  Benador Associates is as fair as balanced as Fox news.

Look at this article from dated 03 Jan 2005


You probably have never even watched Fox news, just blindly babble what you read others have said.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Dago

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 06:57:01 PM »
This kind of thing might need to dealt with by employing an "iron fist" mentality.

Make it too painful, figuratively and litterally to riot, to destory, to rampage, and maybe these clowns will think twice.   Use overwhelming amounts of force, including police and military if necessary.

The wrong approach in the long term would be to coddle, to appease and reward this type of behavior.  Sadly, with the lack of spine so typical in most politicians, that is probably exactly what will happen.

But, it's France, so I am not going to lose any sleep over a country that supported Saddam Hussein, that sold its national soul for a few pieces of gold and refused support to the USA, a country that bailed them out twice from foreign domination.




dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Hangtime

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2005, 07:13:54 PM »
oh, snap!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Dago

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2005, 07:22:22 PM »
Quick, read before the attack of the evil moderators.   :D
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

storch

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2005, 08:23:24 PM »
soooooooooo, how many rifles were dropped?  have the french capitulated yet?

Offline GtoRA2

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Taheri and Spencer on the French Riots...
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2005, 08:55:04 PM »
When it is french fighting french who do they surrender too? Do they like have to rent a German for a day?:D