Author Topic: Oil companies have big quarter  (Read 1201 times)

Offline Gh0stFT

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Re: Oil companies have big quarter
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2005, 04:53:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Well Golly-geen, if you didn't rape the American public after the hurricanes, maybe there wouldn't be a need fund a program to heat homes of poor Americans.


lol NO, its way to socialist!!!!11!!
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Offline Nefarious

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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2005, 05:14:30 PM »
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Originally posted by Debonair
You know who has some fat quarters?
Ryan.
Get your quarters from that dude


Nice, I'll give him a call....;)
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2005, 06:08:30 PM »
Funny how noone wants to be socialsts or communists, but complain that someone is making a profit....are we a capitalist society or not? I don't like the prices either, but it's a supply and demand thing.

Last time I checked the point of owning/investing in a company is to make money.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2005, 08:46:17 PM »
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What about the 1920's-1970's when it DID work? Conveniently forgotten, it seems.  


Easy to conveniently forget something that didn’t exist - as free a market as we have today. Just exactly what industry wide regulations are you referencing? The first major regulation of the oil industry occurred under Nixon starting in 1973 with his price controls. When Reagan repealed price controls in 1981 crude was selling at $40 a barrel ($90 in today’s prices) and the street price of gasoline was over $3 in today’s market. And the unnatural, disruptive shortages. Up until 1976 you could only buy gasoline on even or odd numbered days depending upon your license plate. For example:

When the U.S. government set maximum prices for gasoline in 1973 and 1979, dealers sold gas on a first-come-first-served basis, and drivers got a little taste of what life was like for people in the Soviet Union: they had to wait in long lines to buy gas. The true price of gas, which included both the cash paid and the time spent waiting in line, was often higher than if prices were not controlled at all. At one time in 1979, for example, the U.S. government fixed the price of gasoline at about $1.00 per gallon. If the market price would have been $1.20, a driver who bought ten gallons apparently saved $.20 per gallon, or $2.00. But if the driver had to line up for thirty minutes to buy gas, and if her time was worth $8.00 per hour, the real cost to her was $10.00 for the gas and $4.00 for the time, an overall cost of $1.40 per gallon. Some gas, of course, was held for friends, long-time customers, the politically well-connected, or those who were willing to pay a little cash on the side. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PriceControls.html

But what did happen in 1970? Hmm… It marked the dramatic increase in our reliance on foreign oil and our decline as an oil producing nation. That has only increased. We have 2 percent of the worlds oil reserves but we consume roughly a quarter of world production. Others are increasing their share of consumption. Production is just at pace with demand and will soon lag.

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You sound like a poster child for the oil companies.


Yawn. Bring some facts to the table. The marketing and retail segment of the petroleum industry I cover as a journalist (and have for seven years) is hardly a huge friend of “Big Oil” or even refining. It would be easy to blame big oil for the ills of the world, very easy even for “small oil” to blame big oil, but it’s hard to find a real fault in their business operations compared to other industries. I spent about 80 solid hours last month and spoke to 20 primary sources trying. Consumer advocates (that testified before Congress), attorneys general, oil company reps (that testified before Congress), nationally recognized economists of all varieties (EIA, Cameron Hannover, Cato Institute), association leaders (API to NPRA to the marketer associations that also testified before Congress), but the inescapable reality is it’s not 1950 anymore, and never will be again. Tough **** if you like your Hummers, but that’s life.

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A hurricane damage some refineries? Well boo-hoo. If they built more in the first place and maintained useful excess capacity it wouldn't be a problem...but they don't want to build more because excess capacity isn't "good economic sense". Refineries running at less than peak capacity generates less than maximum potential revenue. Also, artificially bottlenecked supply allows the companies to sell their product for several times what the market would otherwise pay for it.


Useful excess capacity? Perhaps we should pay higher taxes to subsidize and support those excess refineries. Maybe even an extra gas tax?  Until a few years ago you couldn’t make money in refining. The majors were in a hurry to drop refineries off to independents. 5 percent returns. There is no consensus that the “good times” in refining are here to stay since a recession, a return to sensible vehicles or a downturn in the Chinese economy could lead to the industry killing low prices of the 1990s.

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Your line of laissez-faire thinking would return us to the bad old days of the 1890's with corporations doing whatever they wanted. The shareholders made out, and tough luck for everyone else. Unfortunately that's the direction this country is gradually headed, at least until the pendulum once again swings back in the other direction.


You hardly have enough information on my positions to make such a statement. I agree with this in general, though my focus would be more on mergers and antitrust issues, and international treaties that don’t demand an equal playing field where employee salaries and the environment are concerned. Similarly, proper oversight among the appropriate bodies to make sure there are no illegal practices at work. However, I  feel that knee-jerk market control practices are counter productive and only lead to lower efficiencies, waste and higher higher prices.

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I view industries vital to national well-being (telephone, electric, fuel, etc) as being more important than the pocketbooks of shareholders. Sevice and accessibility should NOT be sacrificed in the name of higher profits (witness blackout problems thanks to electric utility cost-cutting in the name of profitability since deregulation). If the oil companies operated in such a manner as to focus on maximum output while maintaining some level of profitability--development of oil shale resources, etc--our fuel prices would never reach half of what they peaked at recently. The companies won't do that on their own though since it would lower overall earnings per share. Note that they'd still remain profitable, just not so profitable as they currently are. But that isn't good enough in a purely greed-driven economy.


Crude prices are set on the Nymex (blame the traders) and are projected to stay at $40 or above according to EIA and Goldman Sachs, T Boon Pickens and others . Peter Butel dropped the bombshell that we will see gas prices at $1.50 soon, but that would be due to a major US recession. Your crystal ball is as good as mine. The reality is that we are at peak world production, no readily apparent hidden reserves (though they may exist) and increasing world demand. That’s a reality, and no longer an “artificial” bottleneck -- unfortunately. Shale and oil sands, etc. are good options, but only at current oil prices. Like it or not “half current prices” are a thing of the past. The best thing we can do is focus on conservation and give up the SUV and 200hp “economy car” for the 30+mpg economy car -- that simple.

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"Without those prices there would have been dry tanks. $3.00 gas for a week or no gas frequently or 3 hour waits in line -- you make the call."

Again, shortages are a short-term problem which demonstrate that supply is lower than demand. The solutions are to either increase production to meet demand, or increase prices until demand falls. Increasing production involves expenses which will result in lower overall earnings per share than simply raising prices. Oil companies therefore like shortages, which are otherwise bad for the country. It's an obvious conflict of interest.


The peak prices were due to having 30 percent of all crude shut out, 10 percent of refined gasoline removed from the market, widespread allocation (which means rationing at the wholesale level) due to two major hurricanes that flooded a city, killed 2000 people and devastated a land area the size of Great Britain. At one point at 20 refineries off line as well as the major pipelines serving the East Coast and Midwest. Unless you can piss gasoline “increasing production” is not an option in a national disaster that hits the heart of petroleum production and refining at peak demand season.

We run with very low overhead. A deregulated market provides drivers with a lower overall price of gasoline averaged out over 12 months. There will be issues with any disruption. The cost to fill a tank, even at these peak periods is easier than the standard cost to fill a tank in 1981. The difference is that by 1981 few Americans were driving the road hogs popular before 1973. That has changed. Give me my road hog and my free gas…

Charon
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 08:51:40 PM by Charon »

Offline ygsmilo

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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2005, 11:03:10 PM »
As always Charon, good well thought out comments,  now explain to them how diesel gulf basis went from a historical +.10 to +1.00 :)

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2005, 11:28:15 PM »
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Originally posted by SirLoin
"Greed is good."..Gord Gekko.


Just remember what happened to Gord Gekko:cool:
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2005, 12:10:47 AM »
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Funny how noone wants to be socialsts or communists, but complain that someone is making a profit....are we a capitalist society or not? I don't like the prices either, but it's a supply and demand thing.

Last time I checked the point of owning/investing in a company is to make money.


I dont think anyone is begrudging anyone from makeing a profit.
The thing that irks people is the obsene profit they make on the backs of consumers for no other reason then they can. Particularly at a time when there are still alot of people hurting.

You can forget the Hurricanes for a moment. Even before then gas prices were on the rise at a pace that was getting everyone irked, myself included.

In the last few years my fuel expences have almost doubled. And largely because of rising fuel costs the prices on everything have risen from the material I buy for my buisness to the food I buy for my family.
eventually it all starts adding up.

I can only pass so much of this along to my customers so dollar for dollar while I may be charging more per job, in the end I end up with less just as many other people are.

The killer part is Oil companies are showing record profits. Which is good for them and their stockholders but bad for everyone else.
The problem is we dont have a choice. we are literally at the mercy of the oil companies because they can charge pretty much what they want and know we will pay it because we have to.
As Patton said in WWII "My men can eat their belts but my tanks have gotta have gas"

I cant blame the Big SUVs for this. Yes there are alot out there but the very vast majority of people I know do not own a large engined SUV.
I have an 8 cylindar full sized van because thats what I need for work.

Driving down the road the vast majority of people I see arent in large engined vehicles of any kind. But they all share one thing in common.
They need Gas. Period.
They dont have a choice like you may have with food and say "Well  beef is going for 3.50 Lb this week and Chicken for 2.00 so this week we will eat chicken."

Gas from station to station and from company to company rarely differ by more then a few pennies at best. and usually certainly not enough to make driving the extra distance worthwhile.


Now if it were like during the 90s and the runaway (albeit bubble) economy people would be griping (cause thats what people do) but it would not have been as big a deal. Because almost everybody was making a ton of money
But now we have a slower growing economy so these large increaces only hurt people and the economy

I dont think anyone would begrudge the oil companies or their shareholders making or showing a profit, even a large profit.
But what people dont like is being taken advantage of because they have no other choice but to pay whatever somone wants to charge simply because they can.

And with not just large but HUGE record breaking profits. They are doing exactly that.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2005, 12:21:13 AM »
Monopoly is more than a ****ing board game.

We're being left nude, blued and tattoed.

We can either start shutting down raping retailers via boycott or incendary devices or get used to being big oil's naked smurfs with company logo's embazoned on our collective asses.
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Offline Denny_Crane!

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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2005, 12:23:43 AM »
What's wrong with a little profit?

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2005, 01:00:36 AM »
it's not un-american to make a profit via hard work and ingenuity.

it's un-american to make a profit via screwing the customer outta his hard earned cash for a necessity at a grossly inflated price.

we've been here before.

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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2005, 03:43:44 AM »
Oil is a commodity. It's price is determined by worldwide production and demand.  The oil price is high because demand is high, and rising, and production can barely keep pace.

If you think you can buy oil for less, go ahead. The rest of the world will happily outbid you.

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I cant blame the Big SUVs for this. Yes there are alot out there but the very vast majority of people I know do not own a large engined SUV.


The US uses a lot more oil per capita than other first world countries. Cut demand and prices fall.

Offline oboe

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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2005, 06:32:55 AM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Oil is a commodity. It's price is determined by worldwide production and demand.  The oil price is high because demand is high, and rising, and production can barely keep pace.

If you think you can buy oil for less, go ahead. The rest of the world will happily outbid you.



The US uses a lot more oil per capita than other first world countries. Cut demand and prices fall.


I had been seeing price swings of as much as 20 cents/gal in 24 hrs, and nearly 50 cents/gal in less than a week.    Gas went from a little over $2.00/gal to over $3.00/gal and now back to $2.19/gal, with large swings in both directions during that time.

I have a hard time beleiving that 'demand' has been fluctuating that wildly, and am wondering what the role of speculation has been in the price of this deregulated commodity.

Ripsnort pits the Right vs the Left on this one - the stockholders vs the consumers- the Rich vs the Poor.    Its nice that you who can afford to hold significant amounts of oil company stock are seeing a large return on your investments, but realize that many, many, MANY more people have been economically hurt by the high fuel prices than have benefitted from stock dividends and increased share prices.    I guess if you think that's funny then go ahead and enjoy a good laugh.

Do you think its been good for the country as a whole, long term?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2005, 07:57:08 AM »
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I have a hard time beleiving that 'demand' has been fluctuating that wildly, and am wondering what the role of speculation has been in the price of this deregulated commodity.


It has a role. Like most commodities, oil is bought months ahead to ensure supply. People have to gamble on what the oil price will be in those months to come. Threats to supply (and there are lots) and possible increases in demand (and people think demand will keep rising) both drive the price up.

But that's not due to "evil speculators" trying to drive the price up, it's down to people hedging their bets as to what the price will be.

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Ripsnort pits the Right vs the Left on this one - the stockholders vs the consumers- the Rich vs the Poor. Its nice that you who can afford to hold significant amounts of oil company stock are seeing a large return on your investments, but realize that many, many, MANY more people have been economically hurt by the high fuel prices than have benefitted from stock dividends and increased share prices. I guess if you think that's funny then go ahead and enjoy a good laugh.


The oil price is high because demand is high, production has been struggling to keep up, there is very little excess capacity, and people are worried about any disruption to supply.

Blame the Chinese economy, the political situation in the Middle East, the hurricanes or the SUVs. But don't blame the oil companies, because all they are doing is selling oil at market prices. Would you do less? Has your house risen in price in the property boom? Would you sell it less than market price to help a poor family?

Offline oboe

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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2005, 08:01:24 AM »
Wasn't blaming the oil companies, if that's not clear.

Was suggesting that speculation made the price swings much worse than they needed to be, and that speculators probably made excess profits.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2005, 08:04:19 AM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Oil is a commodity. It's price is determined by worldwide production and demand.  The oil price is high because demand is high, and rising, and production can barely keep pace.

If you think you can buy oil for less, go ahead. The rest of the world will happily outbid you.



The US uses a lot more oil per capita than other first world countries. Cut demand and prices fall.


OK oil is selling at a high price.

But that excuse doesnt cut it

And thats crude oil. Not Gasoline. Gasoline is only a byproduct of oil.
Gasoline is what is made from oil AFTER it is purchased

Oil makes alot of things. Including plastic as one of its main byproducts. Yet I do not see the price of plastic goods going through the roof.

And if crude oil was selling at such a high price, explain how the oil companies are showing "Record profits".
One would think these prices would be cutting into their bottom line just as gasoline prices cut into mine.

No, as far as gasoline is concerned they are pricegouging plain and simple. Why? Because they can. Because we have no other choice but to buy it no matter what price they charge.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty