August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)

[Toad]

Whether any of us agrees or disagrees about civilians as targets is a moot point.

The fact is that civilians ARE targets. The entire "mutual assured destruction" concept of the Cold War was based on that fact. Right or wrong, it got us this far without another release.

When the terrorists do finally sneak a nuke into the US and set it off, it won't be at some small military base in the middle of the Nevada desert. It will be in a major, well known city.

I believe it will eventually happen, too. The collapse of the Soviet Union let too many weapons and fissionable materials get out into the world arms market. If you can sneak in a boat load of marijuana, a small nuke should be no problemo.

If ever a "World War" breaks out again, civilians will die in the millions. Won't be nice, won't be fun and I don't support the concept. But it won't make any difference what I think.

If there's one constant in human history besides "man's inhumanity to man," it's the ever evolving and improving weapons we build to destroy each other.

Cheerful thought, eh? After all this evolution, the one thing we REALLY got "good" at is killing each other.  

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by RAM:

but I disagree in the Civil matters. Civil population IS NOT a legitim target. Period. The mother who tries to feed her kids in a country at war is NOT a legitim war target. NO WAY in it, I find it undefendible and repugnant. If you want to kill an economy you have better means to do it...kill the factories, kill the commerce navy, kill the railway and road network.

But dont kill their civilians. I have the feel, Toad, that the city bombing from Allied bombers is seen as a "legitim target" because Allied side won. But, tell me, if Osaka and Nagoya and Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, etc were legitim targets...

All the more reason to vote,  know who you vote for, and do it democratically. Don't be mislead.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Toad:

When the terrorists do finally sneak a nuke into the US and set it off, it won't be at some small military base in the middle of the Nevada desert. It will be in a major, well known city.

I did read that book of Tom Clancy. Frightening book, BTW.

But you said it. He who attacks a city with Cilivians as target is a TERRORIST. And we all know what do the terrorists deserve. Enuf said.

Rispnort, it was a democratic country who ordered massive city bomb attacks of Japan. It was a democratic country the one who ordered Dresden ,Hamburg, and countless other cities. I am quite sure that if in 1934 the US congress was asked to aprove an action consisting on bombing a city until is levelled, the stupid who asked for it would be imprisoned for criminal.

In 1945 the ones who did just that were treated as heros. It stinks.

The point is-you never really know what you are voting for until the one you vote is in the power...and many times you find that he is not what you are voting for. You may excuse what happened in the grounds of "hey, in the meantime they DID attack us!!! they were first"

Talion law...eye for eye?...that was the very same law used by the Neardenthals and Cromagnons 40000 years ago.

Who said we evolutioned? lol

BOmbing cities stinks. Period. Dont tell me that a mother with his little kids is a legal target, damnit. It is a crime, a monstrosity,something that deserves justice. And there was no justice for Allied Goerings.

As I said, bomb factories, destroy the commerce navy, put a blockade, cut his communication lines, destroy his oil sources, whatever...

But dont kill innocent people in the grounds of "war is hell so I bomb everyone"

Stinks.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-07-2000).]

[AKDejaVu]

I see the "don't bomb civilians" arguments against the use of the atomic bomb in Japan as being uneducated.

The museum at Nagasaki is rather interesting.  Mention is made of the ship yard, the ammo factory and the steel yard... but 90% of the pictures are of the grade school.

Just what do you do when a school building is right next to an ammo factory?  Or how about when some sadistic leader decides to put 500 people in a building also being used as a command post?  You attack the target and sort out the rest.

Civilians were targets of all sides in the war.  Civilians will always be targets.  Leaders of countries realize when they go to war that they are not simply sending their military into battle, they are sending their entire country.  Any attempt to place blame for the deaths of that leader's citizens is simply a way for him to absolve himself of responisibility.

BTW.. if you want to see a few more examples of atrocity.. check out the Japanese treatment of the Chinese and Koreans.  I wonder if the Japanese would have dropped a atomic bomb on Pearl Harbor if they had the technology?

AKDejaVu

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
BTW.. if you want to see a few more examples of atrocity.. check out the Japanese treatment of the Chinese and Koreans.  I wonder if the Japanese would have dropped a atomic bomb on Pearl Harbor if they had the technology?

AKDejaVu

So the reason to drop a A-bomb is "if they had one they'd drop it on us so we do it"?

Stinks still more than everything I had heard before.

I stated clearly before that A-bomb was for me a fairly good way to end a conflict that, had it continued, it would had been much costier. I'm not against A-bombs themselves, I am against ANY Terror bombing...and as terror bombings were going to be kept until the end, an A-bomb was faster way to end that slaughter.

"what to do if a school is besides a Army depot"---------->to aim at the army depot and if you fail, bad luck...you WERE TRYING TO HIT the army depot, not the school kids.


I'll never say a word agaisnt 8th AF on Europe, because their goal was to bomb WAR TARGETS (I'll forget about Dresden and Hamburg as they were very rare incidents in 8th AF existence). oh, sure, the sometimes missed the target and a lot of bombs fell on civil zones killing innocent people...but that is "colateral damage", damage not intended to be done.

US night bombings of japan AIMED AT NOTHING but the civil houses. OF course sometimes they hit a legitim war target on those terror bombings, but that wasnt the objactive. The true goal was to level the cities until noone could survive in them.
SO HERE THE COLATERAL DAMAGE IS THE FACTORY WHILE THE MAIN OBJECTIVE IS THE CIVILIAN.

STINKS.Its repugnant. Makes me want to puke.

And I still have to hear someone defending that because "hey if he had one he'd drop it on me".

So, if your neighbour wanted a shotgun to kill you and was refused to have an arms licence and you have one you'd kill him? what would you say in the trial? "oh,no I killed him because if he had a shotgun he'd had shot at me, I'm sure"

1st degree murder. Wtg man. You are a hero

Just as LeMay. And Harris.

Stinks

[AKDejaVu]

 

So the reason to drop a A-bomb is "if they had one they'd drop it on us so we do it"?

It wasn't meant as a reason for dropping it.  Please read all the posts in this thread.  The implication is that the evil USA is responsible for all of the worlds woes.  Only the USA is evil enough to use the atomic bomb.

This simply isn't the case.  Many contries have their share of atrocities.  There would be even more if they had nuclear capabilities.

 

STINKS.Its repugnant. Makes me want to puke.

That's good.  It should.  Maybe more people should think like this before choosing war as an option.  What do you think?

A common mistake is to try to give some kind of glamor to war.  To make it seem as if it can be wonderful if you play by the rules.  I'm sorry, but you are simply dillusional.  War is one country fighting another.  It isn't just military vs military... its country vs country.  I'm sorry you have such a difficult time with that... but once again... it is better to have a difficult time with it than to accept it is going to happen and procede with the war anyways.

AKDejaVu

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
 

Rispnort, it was a democratic country who ordered massive city bomb attacks of Japan. It was a democratic country the one who ordered Dresden ,Hamburg, and countless other cities. I am quite sure that if in 1934 the US congress was asked to aprove an action consisting on bombing a city until is levelled, the stupid who asked for it would be imprisoned for criminal.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-07-2000).]

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[Ghosth]

Hmmm interesting that of all the arguements and counter claims made here that everyone has forgotten the one important reason of WHY the bomb was dropped.

Japanese high command had issued everthing from bayonets to rifles to the population and trained them in their use. They would have defended their island to the last man, woman and child!

Casuallty estimates for an invasion of the Japanese home islands were in the millions not only for the allied troops. But also for the Japanese population. In the end it was decided that more Japanese would suvive if the bomb was used. That coupled with saveing
hundreds of thousands of American lives made dropping the bomb the only reasonable choice.

Yes it was terrible, but in the end the alternatives would have been much much worse.
Japanese high commands were split, many elements had no intention of surrendering. The loss of life in a house to house battle from one end of japan to the other would have truly been staggering.


I and hundred's of thousands of other Americans and Japanese are alive today as a direct result of the Bomb.

No one who was not alive at the time & had lived through the war has the right IMHO to judge those who made that decision. Pray we never face such a choice again.

[Downtown]

There were three atomic bombs made.  It would have been six to eight months before any more were available. (Not enough uranium)

One was used at the trinity test site in Alamagordo New Mexico.

The other two were dropped from B-29s on the Main Island of Japan.

The Japanese began to talk of surrender only after the first bomb had been dropped.

The Japanese people were training on the Mainland to help fight off the invasion.

The Emperor wasn't really an Issue, the U.S. knew Tojo was the real power and wanted him.  That Emperor died like three or four years ago.

Some Japanese Journalist interviewed the Colonel who was working on the invasion plans for Japan.  When they saw that the Allies were planning on landing Russian Troops on the Japanese mainland they were thankfull that the U.S. had dropped the bombs.  They felt that the Russians would still be occupying large sections of Japan (Ala Germany.)
(I will try and find this info and post it here.)

More civilians were killed by the Fire Bombing of all the Cities listed above (Including Hiroshima and Nagasaki) than were killed by the Two Atom Bombs, and they didn't clamor for the Japanese Military to surrender then.  These cities were not wholly undefended, why do you think there were so many bombing missions at night.  The Japanese Anti-Aircraft on the Mainland was more effective that that over Berlin (Minor Damage to a Bomber had more effect because they had farther to travel in case of say a fuel Leak as opposed to Europe.)  Also the Japanese Fighters were quite good when they caught U.S. Bombers (That is why the B-29s flew so high.)

Now, having said all that above.

The Japanese were pretty much isolated onto the main Island with extremely limited offensive capabilities to that point.  The Allies had Air Supremacy, Naval Supremacy.  Had denied the Japanese fuel and food and shelter and metal and oil and on and on.  We could have isolate the island and continued to shell from our ships and bomb with our bombers without landing indefinately with minor losses.  I believe due to the continuous pounding that could have been delivered (Add the Russian Air Force and Navy into the Frey) and the Japanese would have eventually surrendered (so what if it had taken another year.)

I belive that the U.S. Chose to use the Atom Bombs because they had a new toy.  The wanted to demonstrate who was the biggest baddest kid on the block.  The had developed the A-Bombs to use in case the Germans tried to develop and use their own, so that we could retaliate.  They never suspected the Japanes of trying to build A-Bombs.

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[ygsmilo]

"War is Hell"

General William Tecumseh Sherman

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JG 2's current cannon magnet

Milo

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by ygsmilo:


General William Tecumseh Sherman

Another criminal. His quotes are worth his actions, that fer sure.

[Downtown]

William Tecumseh Sherman was one of the best Generals of the Civil War.  After my P-40 Piece for the techPubs site I am gonna do a thing comparing Sherman and Longstreet do determine who was a better general.  Tough Call in my opinion.  Sherman would happily have not fought the war, but once he got in, he was in.  He was sent home because they thought he was insane when he started mentioning what it would take for the Union to win the civil war.  Of the Union commanders he lost fewer troops than many while carrying on offensive actions.  As for his scorched earth policy he didn't think it up (he borrowed it from the Russians who had used it against Napoleon) he wasn't very thurough, they had to burn Jackson Missisippi three times to put it out.  Sherman often left plenty of shelter for folks (Just not the pretty white pillard Plantation Houses.)  He also left families enough food to subsist comfortably on.  Just not enough to feed the Confederate Army.

I will argue for Sherman, he was a pretty good general and decent humanitarian. (His bite was rarely worse than his bark.)

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Downtown]

Can we take into account the U.S. Bombing of Cities and put in it in context with the Japanese Bombing of Cities (Shainghai, Hangkow, Peking, Beijing, NanChing,) and the German Terror bombing of London?

Well the U.S. Bombed Dresden and Hamburg, and the Germans bombed London and the Japanese bombed a lot of China. And the Germans bombed Warsaw, and so on and so forth.

Oh, the U.S. were killing Civilians.  The JAPANESE AND THE GERMANS WERE DOING IT TOO!

I have great new reel footage taken by the Japanese from inside the Japanese planes as they bomb CITIES in CHINA and KILL HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!

BTW Nagasagki had a Air Base and Naval Dry Dock Facility.  They had bombed the Naval Facility at Nagasaki before.

They warned the Japanese that they had a weapon of immense destruction and said that if they didn't surrender they would bomb one city at a time out of existance.  They bombed Hiroshima and said do you beleive us now, if you don't surrender we will do it again.  The Japanese said you can't.  We said one city every three days until you surrender.  They didn't surrender and Nagasaki was bombed.

When is VJ day?

August 6
The U.S B-29 Superfortress, Enola Gay, drops an atomic bomb on the Japanese industrial city of Hiroshima. The city is leveled, and an estimated 100,000 people are killed immediately (another 100,000 will die later from radiation sickness and burns). On August 9, a second bomb will be dropped on the Japanese city of Nagasaki.
(Read Eyewitness accounts of exposure to the A-bomb -- translated from the Japanese Documentary: Hiroshima Witness, produced by Hiroshima Peace Cultural Center and NHK, and located at: (http://129.171.129.67/mf/hibakusha/).
August 10
The Japanese sue for peace after the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and U.S. President Truman declares that August 14th will be V-J (Victory over Japan) Day. To date, nearly 55 million people have died in the Second World War, including 25 million in the Soviet Union, nearly 8 million in China, and more than 6 million in Poland.


We couldn't have dropped a third.

As I said, from my reading I don't think that it was necessary, the Japanese couldn't mount an offensive, and we could have denied them the resources to re-arm indefinetly.  Without food and fuel they would have been forced to surrender.  I don't believe the losses to the Allies would have been that great if we had waited them out.

But the Japanese were not ready to surrender until after the 2nd Bomb (Read Saburo Sakai's "Samurai," he still had fight in him.)  Also there is a book about what the Japanese military was doing to prepare to defend the Islands.  I believe it was written by the General who was in charge of coordinating the resistance.  He wasn't ready to surrender either.

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Downtown]

I almost regret to post this because all the Vets I contact consider Dan Ford a terrible revisionist, but generally I find his book research to be fairly good.
 http://www.danford.net/end.htm

Man, I worry about the poor Japanese people who follow people like this.

I worry about the U.S. People too, we got our share of loonies, and our governement is working hard to create beauracicies like they used to have in Russia.  Make the Red Tape too think and nothing will be accomplished because it is just to squealing hard to do!

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Downtown:
William Tecumseh Sherman was one of the best Generals of the Civil War.

Agreed

 

I will argue for Sherman, he was a pretty good general and decent humanitarian.

Decent humanitarian? you arent of indian heritage are you?

oh, man...decent humanitarian...my god.

 

The JAPANESE AND THE GERMANS WERE DOING IT TOO!

I have great new reel footage taken by the Japanese from inside the Japanese planes as they bomb CITIES in CHINA and KILL HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!

So? you are going to shot your wife because O.J. Simpson did it and escaped the justice? hum? or if your neighbour gets a shotgun and kills a man on the street you get your Colt 45 and you put a shot in the middle of his head?

You know what is the penalty for such thing? 1st degree murder?

In some of your states, means death penalty. In others you'd be in prison for all your life.

For sure you wont be treated as a hero. Harris was. LeMay was.

So that argument is worth nothing. That was valid for prehistoric monkeys or uncivilized 1300 wars.

Not for a XX century democracy.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-07-2000).]