Author Topic: August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)  (Read 1459 times)

Offline Yeager

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« on: August 06, 2000, 04:25:00 PM »
I wanted to come here and post my thoughts on the atomic attacks against Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I am troubled when so many of my fellow countrymen seem ignorant of the historical facts surrounding the Second World War.

Case in point:
In Seattle we have this yearly event called *Seafair*. The HydroBoats have a big race today and the Blue Angles will put on their usual magnificent display in front of hundreds of thousands of people over Lake Washington.

Interestingly, the Navy always sends a contingent of Warships to display for the Public. This year we will have an Aircraft Carrier on one of the docks at Elliot Bay for public tours. The Navy also is sending the US Alabama, a nuclear attack submarine
for the public to see.

A group of anti-nuclear people petitioned the Seattle City Councel to ban the Alabama from coming to Seattle. There was a lot of support for this by the people of Seattle because nuclear weapons are so evil and killed so many innocent men, women and children at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I saw the potentiol banning of the Alabama as a joke to say the least. First off, the carrier is nuclear powered but no one said anything about that. They were picking on the submarine unfairly. Neither a sub nor an aircraft carrier were involved in the attacks on either Japanese city.

Now if the CAF B29 was going to do a flyby over Lake Washington I could probably understand the antis a little better but I would still be against banning even a B29 flyby. I like B29s.

Im one of those people that think nuclear weapons are aweful destructive. Im also thankful that a nation of decent people (more or less) who are basically self governed (more or less) invented the first nuclear weapons. Imagine what could have happened if Hitler had invented his own nuclear weapon in the summer of 1941, or the Japanese military rulers in 1941! So Im thinking the world got aweful lucky on that count.

I also believe that the invention of nuclear weapons was inevitable. Sooner or later someone would have figured this thing out and lets just be glad that things have turned out the way they have.

I am troubled however because technology has enabled nuclear weapons to be brought down in size to the point where someone can walk a suitcase into a building and blow up an entire city. Im surprized this hasnt happened yet and I suspect that eventually something like this will occur. I do not know what the result for humanity will be.

The United States, Russia, France, England, Pakistan, India and others have these weapons
and the world could still be denied the company of humans at any moment of any day.

Mass nuclear destruction is just a heartbeat away. As it has been since 1945.

Having said all that, let me say that whats done is done. I would have preferred a different route against Japan, perhaps an atomic demonstration to the military leaders of Japan on a spot largely uninhabited in Japan (if there was such a spot). Still, I do not know whether the rulers would have folded in the face of such a demonstration or what would have happened if the damn bomb turned out to be a dud (surprize was probably considered to be an important factor in the attacks). I do know that upwards of twenty atomic devices were either en-route for Japan or under construction when the military leaders finally shutdown shop, and that previoulsy a massive invasion of the southern part of Japan was planned for December of 1945. The projected loss of life was somewhere around 1 million Allied soldiers and scores of millions of Japanese peoples. With this knowledge I suspect that the people of Hirsoshima and Nagasaki, that lost their lives in the atomic attacks, may have actually helped save millions, even billions of lives by the terrible demonstrations of atomic power unleashed upon them. The use of atomic weapons against Japan was as regrettable as the World War itself. No more, no less.......

Let me conclude by saying I am not proud of the route taken to end the war in the Pacific, but that I understand completely why the attacks were carried out. My father would have turned eighteen in May of 1946 and he was simply not looking forward to going to Japan. When he heard about the atomic attacks and the subsequent unconditional surrender of Japan he, his mother and father cried together with Joy.

I really wish the world had not endured the Second World War but in the summer of 1945, the Allied people of the world were tiring of the death and the brillaint flash attacks were probably the best route to insure a speedy conclusion to a hundred million violent bloody deaths.

In the end who knows....its all second guessing but I will not wonder too much. If my father had died in Japan in the summer of 1946, I would not even be here to second guess, so I wont.

To the peace loving peoples of Japan, I salute you and wish a million years of happiness and prosperity to you <S>

Yeager

ps
The USS Alabama was permitted to attend Seafair.

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[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-06-2000).]
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Offline Replicant

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2000, 05:36:00 PM »
Good post Yeager!  Yep, there were several reported missing nukes from the former Soviet Union so they could be in any of the former states.  I think the Ukraine inherited most of the nukes after Russia.  You've heard stories of these being sold off to other countries and it's something to take seriously.  I can see a time when the likes of Iraq and Libya will be in a position to have their own nukes and they're the sort of people that would use them!  If Iraq used chemical/biological weapons on their own people (Kurds) then anything goes!  I remember seeing a MOD video of that and I can tell you that it wasn't pleasant.  Men, Women, Children all dead where they were standing.... lifeless bodies littered around what was a thriving village.  

Anyway....  terrorism, dictators, hostile neighbouring countries.... when will it happen.....

'Nexx'
NEXX

Renfield

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2000, 05:37:00 PM »
...snip...

[This message has been edited by Renfield (edited 08-06-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2000, 06:07:00 PM »
Yeager:

I see where you are coming from. To a very large extent, I also agree with you.

But, I do not think the two bombs dropped on Japanese civilians should ever had been released.

Frow what I've read, the Japanese were ready to surrender and made suggestions in this regard to the Soviets, who elected to keep their mouths a bit shut due to territorial disputes, some of which are still active. Of course, it was not an unconditional surrender; the Japanese desperately wanted to keep their Emperor. Anything but an unconditional surrender might sound bad in American ears, but keeping the Emperor would have only a symbolic value and very little political or economical.

If the Americans were and are a decent, fair people, they wouldn't have cried for blood flowing from Japanese civilians in an act of revenge for Pearl Harbour and the expansionism and cruelty the Japanese were guilty of. I have no idea whether anything less than an unconditional surrender would be enough to please the American people *at that time*, but I seriously doubt it. Or any other people for that matter on the victory run.

As it is now, the US and UN go to great lengths to negotiate peace in regions of trouble before intervenining militarly. Maybe it is a legacy of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, maybe it is not.

But, the facts remains; a decent and honorable people (mostly) first developed the nuclear bomb. Luckily for us before the Soviets, Japanese or (gasp) Germans. The very same people (through their leaders) opted to use them not once, but twice, against defenseless civilians. This is in a way hard to reconcile with being decent.

An all out invasion of the Japanese islands would have been very costly indeed in terms of casualities. This, however, was not the only alternative.

To me, there were more sinister considerations that had to be made; what was the post war world going to look like? How could the US, who already knew about the cruelties of one of its allieds, show the very same that there should be no further aggression against other states by the communists? And how could the US secure the surrender of the Japanese before the Russians did? I.e power politics, in which names great atrocities and unjustice has been done.

Would the Japanese have surrendered if the US demonstrated the awesome power of the nuclear bomb? We will never know; because we never bothered to find out.

Were two bombs necessary? Usually, when I make a mistake once, I learn from it. I don't have to put my hand on a hot piece of charcoal twice to learn that it hurts. Or was the second bomb a message from the Americans saying "we are capable and willing of doing it again, and again, and again, if necessary?

The country that invented the atomic bomb is also the only country to have used it. Twice. I also feel that this is a fact worth consideration.

Overall, I understand why the Americans did it, but would have favoured a much more conservative and probing approach. It doesn't take much imagination to me as a Dane to think what would have happened if it was finished a few months later and dropped on a city in northern Germany, for one, bu that is secondary.

To me, (and please excuse the pun) two bombs dropped on civilians seem like a massive overkill.

Others might and will disagree.

But to ban B-29's or whatnot, or argue for this because of the bombs is, in my eyes, laughable and extremist. Banning Enola Gay from airshows is arguably ok (the US does have a large Asian population after all, and it is quite insensitive to show off that bomber in a sense).
<S!>

Oh, and...

Bloody American opportunist mass murdering thieves!

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StSanta
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"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-06-2000).]

Offline Toad

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2000, 06:23:00 PM »
Here's an interesting page on this, with lots of original documents pertaining to the decision.

It's called: Atomic Bomb: Decision

Here's the intro; want to know what the guys who made the decison were thinking?

"On August 6 and 9, 1945, the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed by the first atomic bombs used in warfare.

Documents on the decision to use the atomic bomb are reproduced here in full-text form. In most cases, the originals are in the U.S. National Archives. Other aspects of the decision are shown from accounts of the participants. This page was new May 29, 1995, and it was last updated August 6, 2000"

 http://www.dannen.com/decision/index.html
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Zigrat

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2000, 07:24:00 PM »
I agree, i do not believe the Nuke had to be used ( but i certainly find demonstrations against things like b29s silly to say the least)

I think the bomb was dropped because, not only did we want to end the war with japan, but we wanted to show the russians how poerful we were. Also, we did not want to split japan with russia which might have happened had the war lasted a few more months. I don't think invasion was very likely, tho you do see people in videos training for hand to hand combat on the beaches etcera. Most of the bomb was IMHO polictics and the fact we had spent sooo mcuh money on it that we wanted something to show for it..

but as they say, hindsight is 20/20 and truman was new to the whole A-bomb thing, i dont know if he fully realized its destructive potential.

Offline Dinger

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2000, 08:03:00 PM »
I read this over on AGW first, but I decided to reply to it here.
I have no problem saying that my fellow Americans in charge of their decision probably had racism and competition with the Soviet Union to help them make the decision.
I also find the use of the atom bomb repulsive, and equally so, any weapons of mass destruction.  Hell, the whole idea of strategic bombing is offensive to me.  You don't "break the morale" of a country by bombing cities and massacring its civilians; you just piss them off.  How else do you think you can get people to fly Me163s?  War is awful, 20th-century(and 19th for that matter) warfare is inhuman, but this stuff is just...icky.

Offline RAM

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2000, 08:03:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Zigrat:

but as they say, hindsight is 20/20 and truman was new to the whole A-bomb thing, i dont know if he fully realized its destructive potential.

Oh, he knew. He was aware of the New Mexico tests, and fully knew all about its potential.

My personal opinion on the A-bomb released?.
After burning all tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Kyoto...after seeing thousands of Japanese people burning in low level murder night attacks on hopelessy undefended cities, I say that it really doesnt matter. In fact the trade off was good. Had the war endured for 1 month longer than it did, maybe the same people would have died in the burning flaming terror the japanese cities were in 1945.

Ah, BTW, The emperor didnt dare to ask for peace after Hiroshima, he had to wait for Nagasaki...and when it happened too he had to see thousands of people on the doors of his palace calling him not to sign peace.

So, yes, the A-bomb did shorten the war for long. And the lifes lost would had been more had the war endured longer.

(I wish LeMay is burning in hell, along Goering, Hitler, Stalin , Harris and many other monsters who fought in both sides in WWII)

<flame suit on>

Offline Yeager

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2000, 08:14:00 PM »
StSanta,

Nice reply, thanks.

FWIW, I believe that the US military leaders
were commited to using the growing supply of atom bombs up and down the length of Japan until either the Japanese Race ceased to exist or the Japanese military surrendered unconditionally.  The point being obvious:  Who wants to lose a million soldiers killed and wounded when you can do it with a mere fraction of the cost. Already, hundreds of thousands of Americans had died and twice that wounded.  The devilish memories of IwoJima and Okinawa were still on blood stained dungarees and in hospital ships and black sandy graveyards.  In my mind this would have been a preferrable course over land invasion and I would easily make the same call if I were Harry Truman in the summer of 1945.  

-if I were Harry Truman in the summer of 1945-

It is my understanding that the plan  (Operation Olympic), was to overtake the southernmost tip of Japan, clear it of all vegatation and existing Japanese structures, build a large retaining wall seperating Japan northward and build dozens of airfields to begin the systematic annihalation of Japanese civilization.  Sentiments in the US, and to a lessor extent, allied governments at that time were such that the total destruction of Japan was a deeply pursued goal.  Thank God Hirohito stepped in and saved his people from utter destruction.

Also, were you aware of the fact that several high ranking Japanese officers tried to intercept the Emperors recorded surrender message to prevent its broadcast over Japanese radio!  Such was the mentality of the Japanese military that they preferred the total destruction of Japan and its people
over surrender.  Fortunately, the broadcast ocurred and Japan surrendered.

I can only speculate on this but I think the outcome was probably better the way it happened.  I do not believe that the Japanese military wanted terribly to surrender and in fact sought the honorable death, taking all of Japanese civilization with them.  The cultural mentality in Japan was such that you simply didnt go agaisnt the wishes of your Emperor.

In the final analysis, Hirohito, in spite of his record supporting the military and associated nightmarish conquests in Asia, really deserves some credit for saving Japan from total destruction.

Thnx for the link Toad, I look forward to getting smarter on the subject, perhaps it will modify my obserations.

RAM, you seem to be largely correct in my estimation but how is Lemay and Harris to be figured into the same crowd as Hitler?

Yeager


[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-06-2000).]
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline RAM

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2000, 09:07:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager:
RAM, you seem to be largely correct in my estimation but how is Lemay and Harris to be figured into the same crowd as Hitler?


For the same reasons I include Goering Stalin, Mussolini...

Crimes against the humanity. all of them.

 To bomb a city full of civilians by night until you level it because you cant hit it with precision during the day because a lack of design of my planes (Harris' explanation on night zone bombing, and not to mention his attack on Dresden).

 To bomb a city full of civilians by night until you level it because you cant hit it with precision due for JetStream. (Lemay did that in Japan, no precision bombing at the altitudes he wanted B29s to operate so instead of attacking legitim targets with more risk he chosed to burn alive thousands and thousands of civilians)

both were examples of 2 men who didnt knew to do their work well and they bombed civilians to make the effect that they were doing something for the war effort.

It stinks. and it is a crime. And I hope they now are crying in the flames for it.

Offline Yeager

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2000, 10:38:00 PM »
Hehe...ok, fair enough with applied logic.

Just remember that without Hitler and Tojo giving a damn good reason to fight, neither of these two guys would be remembered for anything, let alone their bloody, criminal response.

In the end Im just thankful that the side I inherited at birth (20+ years later) won the bloody damned war.

Yeager

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-06-2000).]
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Offline Toad

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2000, 10:58:00 PM »
Once again we of the "perfect 20/20 vision hindsight" are viewing history through the prism of our "politically correct" new social consciousness.

55 years ago, the United States was involved in a total war against Japan, one which the Japanese started unannounced.

Ram, ask yourself this: in a society committed to "total war"...say Japan in 1945 for example...where does the logistical trail that supports the front line combat soldier end?

The soldier is a target. The supply train is a target. The factory is a target. The factory workers are in support of the war effort. The train conductors that bring the workers to the factory are supporting the war effort. The farmers that feed the workers... well, I guess you get the idea.

You know, folks made the same kind of arguments against the machine gun when it was introduced. It was simply "too terrible" a weapon. But designers kept on designing and war making got even more destructive.

Total War is Total War. It isn't pretty and it never has been. Civilians die. Read up on what happened to the civilian populations of cities under siege in the Dark Ages. The scale is much greater now, of course. But nothing has really changed.

There were so many places that this terrible chain of events could have been broken.

You ask for a "demonstration" of the A-bomb? They were extensively warned of what was about to happen.

Either they didn't believe it or chose to ignore it.

Hiroshima was an incredibly terrifying demonstration. Did they surrender? No. It took Nagasaki to convince them.

Terrible. Awful. Disgusting. All of those.

But better or worse than 1 Million invasion casualties on the US side alone? Who knows how many on the Japanese side?

Any politician of any country would have made the same choice. You don't sacrifice your own people if you don't have to.

That was the "bottom" line for Truman.

All our hindsight won't change what happened 55 years ago.

I wonder if that terrible incident will be enough to save us in the future.

Iraq uses chemical weapons of mass destruction against its own Kurdish population. Man's inhumanity to man maybe the one constant in the world's history.

At least Hiroshima and Nagasaki had clear war aims: to end it immediately without the need for invasion.

Will the world be able to say that when the next nuke goes off?


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-06-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline RAM

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2000, 11:43:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:


You ask for a "demonstration" of the A-bomb? They were extensively warned of what was about to happen.

I agree. Even after Hiroshima Hirohito couldnt sue for peace. Nagasaki made him take the decision but still he had to counter the will to fight of many people.


but I disagree in the Civil matters. Civil population IS NOT a legitim target. Period. The mother who tries to feed her kids in a country at war is NOT a legitim war target. NO WAY in it, I find it undefendible and repugnant. If you want to kill an economy you have better means to do it...kill the factories, kill the commerce navy, kill the railway and road network.

But dont kill their civilians. I have the feel, Toad, that the city bombing from Allied bombers is seen as a "legitim target" because Allied side won. But, tell me, if Osaka and Nagoya and Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, etc were legitim targets...

Was rotterdam a legitim target in 1940? and London? and Coventry? and Belgrade in 1941?

They were ordered by a monster , a criminal, a sick morphine-addict fat son of a squeak.

But that criminal, sick son of a squeak's orders pale in comparison with those given by Harris and LeMay. They killed millions of civilians in their own houses. kids. Ladies. Mothers with little kids. Old mans. People who NEVER is a legitim target.

And Yeager, somehow I knew that here there would be an answer from somebody like the one that "hitler and mussolini started".

When I was a little kid (6 years or so) I was playing with my cousin (5 years) we got angry and he hit me...well you know how things end between kids   I answered and he got the worse part,as I was the bigger of the two. Nothing serious, both crying, you know...but for sure it was clear that I had hit him more hard than he to me.

I got some hot-butt after my mom's claps when we arrived home after the "fight"  

Did my mom understand he had started,not me?. She understood the right thing, in life you have to play with some rules. If someone breaks them YOU ARENT ALLOWED TO BREAK THEM TOO!

Damnit if I evade taxes I cant defend myself saying that a guy I know evades them too!!! cuz we'd both end in the jail.

After WWII Harris and LeMay were treated as heros. Those F***ng son of a squeak had a good and bright life after WWII as war heros.

I hope that after the death they got what they deserved, because in life there was no justice for them.

(BTW the first big terror bombing in all times, Guernika, happened only 30 miles from Bilbao ,where I live. SO I know who started. But I dont care that the rest were only followers. THEY DID the same so they are in the same league as the first one.)

( and that league is criminal against the humanity)

Offline Dinger

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2000, 12:55:00 AM »
And the soldiers in the Dark Ages were pretty damn civilized about it too.  Sure the crusaders would gloat about having seized Jerusalem, and spread Muslim, Jewish and Christian blood through the streets such that in the Temple they were up to their ankles in it.  But, you know, when you have to face your victim, you automatically limit the numbers.  On the other hand, if all it takes to kill a whole city is to throw a crank, you can be as brutal as you want to be.
This is what is scary and obscene about modern warfare: by depersonalizing slaughter, we can make the butchers much more efficient.  It's ugly.  The only thing worse is that we can use such tactics to slaughter people for the pure joy of killing them, without any significant benefit to the war effort.

RAM: the worst delusion to suffer is to find people who allow you your opinion, but don't think it important because you're a young college kid and are allowed to believe those things.

Oh, and back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The most obnoxious viewpoint around is best characterized by a former housemate (and local politician) of mine: "Well, if it's nuclear it's got to be bad".  Sure, nukes are bad, but rallying against something because you don't understand what it is, and are afraid of it, is a position based on weakness and ignorance, and I fail to be impressed.
The same could be said for those afraid of genetically-modified crops.  Geezus, look at what's being done, and what effects it can have.  And take a glance at the Third World for a second.
Don't give me this BS about "Secrets Man was Not Meant to Know".
[/rant]

Offline Dinger

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August 6, 1945 (repost from AGW)
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2000, 07:10:00 AM »
And in case you're all wondering what happened: I'm at my childhood home in California.  Tomorrow I drive to Iowa.  That last post is proof that the finest wines in the world come from out here.  And I challenge anyone to prove me wrong in my chauvinism.