Spit question

[Pieper]

Here is some information on SpitIX.....
In summer 1944 several major improvements were made to Mk. IXs coming off the production line:

They were fitted with the Mark II Gyro Gunsight. This gunsight helped pilots calculate the correct angle of deflection to use when leading their targets. Its introduction doubled the effectiveness of their gunnery and was a major factor in Allied air superiority.
The E Type wing was introduced. It removed the .303 machine guns mounted in the outer wings as most aircraft at that time had armour impenetrable by .303 bullets. The 20 mm Hispano cannon were moved outboard and the more effective .50 calibre Browning heavy machine gun was introduced. The improved armament was more effective for both air-to-air engagements and air-to-ground attacks.

Eat that and give me my 50 cals back in the IX

Pieper

[Pieper]

Heres another on the Spit........
Role Day fighter
Crew one, pilot
First Flight March 5, 1936
Entered Service August, 1938
Manufacturer Supermarine
Dimensions
Length 29 ft 11 in 9.1 m
Wingspan 36 ft 10 in 11.2 m
Height 11 ft 5 in 3.9 m
Wing area 242.1 ft² 22.5 m²
Weights
Empty 5,000 lb 2300 kg
Loaded 6,770 lb 3,078 kg
Maximum takeoff 8,380 lb 3,810 kg
Powerplant
Engine Rolls-Royce Merlin 45
Power 1,470 hp 1,096 kW
Performance
Maximum speed 374 mph 602 km/h
Combat range 470 mi 760 km
Ferry range 1,140 mi 1,825 km
Service ceiling 35,000 ft 11,300 m
Rate of climb 1,653 ft/min 504 m/min
Wing loading 28 lb/ft² 137 kg/m²
Power loading 4.6 lb/hp 2.1 kg/hp
Armament
Guns 2 × 20 mm cannon
4 × 0.303 inch (7.7 mm) machine guns
Bombs 1 × 500 lb (230 kg) bomb


Now.....give me my 500lb bomb back!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Pieper

[Pieper]

Now I'm really Mad......heres a bit of information bout the V I found

SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 36 ft. 10 in. (32 ft. 7 in. in L.F. version)
Length: 29 ft. 11 in.
Height: 11 ft. 4.75 in.
Weight: 6,785 lbs. maximum takeoff
Armament: Normally two Hispano 20 mm cannon (120 rounds per gun) and four Browning .303 machine guns (350 rounds per gun). Some with four Hispano 20 mm. cannon
Bomb load: two 250-lb. bombs or one 500-lb. bomb
Engine: One twelve-cylinder, liquid-cooled Rolls-Royce Merlin 45 of 1,470 hp.
Crew: One

PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 374 mph. at 13,000 ft.
Service Ceiling: 37,000 ft.

Why Did the cut the MKV guns in half of what it truly had?????????

Give me back my bombs and my 240 rounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pieper

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Pieper
Here is some information on SpitIX.....
In summer 1944 several major improvements were made to Mk. IXs coming off the production line:

They were fitted with the Mark II Gyro Gunsight. This gunsight helped pilots calculate the correct angle of deflection to use when leading their targets. Its introduction doubled the effectiveness of their gunnery and was a major factor in Allied air superiority.
The E Type wing was introduced. It removed the .303 machine guns mounted in the outer wings as most aircraft at that time had armour impenetrable by .303 bullets. The 20 mm Hispano cannon were moved outboard and the more effective .50 calibre Browning heavy machine gun was introduced. The improved armament was more effective for both air-to-air engagements and air-to-ground attacks.

Eat that and give me my 50 cals back in the IX

Pieper

You've got it in the Spit XVI which is nothing more then an LFIX with an American built Packard Merlin 266 in place of the Rolls Merlin 66.

The IX you describe was coming off the production line next to the XVI but it had the Rolls Merlin 66 in it.  It too had clipped E wings etc.

the FIX we have is pre E wing from the 42-43 time frame.  This is the Spit IX we have from 43.


Image below is of the LFIX your description covers from 44-45.  Same as our XVI.  This one still has the rounded rudder but that's the only dif besides the engine maker.

Always best to do a bit more digging before screaming too loud

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Pieper
Now I'm really Mad......heres a bit of information bout the V I found

SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 36 ft. 10 in. (32 ft. 7 in. in L.F. version)
Length: 29 ft. 11 in.
Height: 11 ft. 4.75 in.
Weight: 6,785 lbs. maximum takeoff
Armament: Normally two Hispano 20 mm cannon (120 rounds per gun) and four Browning .303 machine guns (350 rounds per gun). Some with four Hispano 20 mm. cannon
Bomb load: two 250-lb. bombs or one 500-lb. bomb
Engine: One twelve-cylinder, liquid-cooled Rolls-Royce Merlin 45 of 1,470 hp.
Crew: One

PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 374 mph. at 13,000 ft.
Service Ceiling: 37,000 ft.

Why Did the cut the MKV guns in half of what it truly had?????????

Give me back my bombs and my 240 rounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pieper

Again, do a little research.  There were three basic variants of the Spit V.  

The Spitfire Va which had 8 303 mgs
The Spitfire Vb which had 2 20mm cannon with 60 rounds each and 4 303s
The Spitfire Vc which has 2 20mm cannon with 120 rounds each and 4 303s.

There were also numerous engine types used on the Spit V.

We have the early production Spitfire Vb with drum fed 20mms with 60 rounds each, not the Spit Vc with belt fed 20mms with 120 rounds each.  It's not the later LFVc either with the low alt merlin, it's the earlier Merlin in the Spit V so it's not the best performer of the Spit Vs.  It's the 41 version pre bombs, clipped wings, etc.  It's not the 1943 version you are looking for.

Imagine yourself flying the first sweeps over France in the newly issued Spitfire Vbs and being pumped about finally having cannons.  No drop tanks fitted yet, and the Malta experience hasn't happened either where bombs were stuck on the Spit Vcs involved creating the first "Bomb fires"


This is what we have.  A 1941 basic Spitfire Vb


This is what you describe and want a 1943-44 Spitfire LFVc with all the refined bells and whistles that came with it.  It's not the AH Spit V

[Crumpp]

Interesting Stuff, Guppy.  Essentially then all Spitfires are tropical.  Wonder how they got around the physics and not suffered a cooling drag increase?

It didn't really detract from performance at all, unlike the large filter that was used on the first tropical Spit Vs in the MTO and Pac.

According to Shacklady and Morgen it went from 8% to 12% with new filters in Spitfire Mk IX.  The Spitfire MK VIII had a "universal" filter but it still seems to effect performance as you are hanging extra cooling drag on the aircraft and was the same on used on the Spitfire Mk IX AFAIK.

However it does not answer my question:

Did the allied tropical filters continue to fliter the air for the duration of the flight?

Do you know the answer?

All the best,

Crumpp

[Kurfürst]

Crumpp, I think the later trop filter that was fitted to all spits as standard was a bypassable, so it could be either used a tropical or normal, though I can't recall if that was possible to set from the cocpit or only by the mechanics on the ground.

Guppy, can you tell how did the Spitfire improved regarding bombracks and droptanks, what were the milestones when these were first operationally used? Ie. when did they first use dt, when was the belly racks and later the wing racks for bombs first employed?

[Crumpp]

Crumpp, I think the later trop filter that was fitted to all spits as standard was a bypassable, so it could be either used a tropical or normal, though I can't recall if that was possible to set from the cocpit or only by the mechanics on the ground.

It appears that way in the diagrams.  I was thinking someone might know for sure.

All the best,

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

The air intake shutter was operated from the cockpit. The control was mounted on the port side of the cockpit.

See diagram pg 282 of S:tH. 1st issue

Initial trials with overload tanks (30gal) under each wing were conducted in early 1939.

[Kurfürst]

I know about the trials etc, I was interested in the first actual use. Those early trials afaik were concentrating on fixed external tanks that were not jettisonable, and not very successfull because of that, if ever used.

[Nashwan]

   Did the allied tropical filters continue to fliter the air for the duration of the flight?

I don't know about the early filters, but those fitted to the Spit VIII/IX onwards were switchable in flight by a lever in the cockpit, for ground running they filtered the air, for normal flight the filter was bypassed.

According to Shacklady and Morgen it went from 8% to 12% with new filters in Spitfire Mk IX. The Spitfire MK VIII had a "universal" filter but it still seems to effect performance as you are hanging extra cooling drag on the aircraft and was the same on used on the Spitfire Mk IX AFAIK.

No extra cooling drag, as the radiators didn't change afaik. I think M&S are talking about a prototype, with possible changes in the intercooler radiator as well.

The early filters caused a lot of drag. The later type caused little external drag, but initially air bled around and through the filter even when it was bypassed in flight, leading to a reduction in ram. Later blanking plates were fitted to fully bypass the filter when if flight. see page 281 - 282 of Spitfire the History, which includes tests of several Spitfires with and without the blanking plates. Adding the plates increased full throttle height by 900 - 1300 ft, and increased speeds by 5 - 11 mph.

[Kurfürst]

So to rephrase the question :

When and what model Spitfire was the first to use droptanks in combat?
Introduction date of various DTs, afaik 90 gallon ones did not come until '44.

When and what model Spitfire was the first to use belly bomb rack in combat?

When and what model Spitfire was the first to use wing bomb racks in combat?

I presume all were introduced first onto the MkVs, at least I cannot recall to see earlier Marks with bombs or DTs.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Later blanking plates were fitted to fully bypass the filter when if flight. see page 281 - 282 of Spitfire the History, which includes tests of several Spitfires with and without the blanking plates. Adding the plates increased full throttle height by 900 - 1300 ft, and increased speeds by 5 - 11 mph.

You mean the blanking plates came with less performance loss than the early filters. I cannot see how a blanking plate can increase speed.

Were these plates put into serial production, or they were subject of various experiments?

[MiloMorai]

Spit V

Mod 436 - 30gal drop tank - 29.8.41
Mod 437 - 90gal drop tank - 29.8.41

[Squire]

I dont know why they are so dead set against having the Spit V with a DT, must be a MA-whiney thing. Least they added one to the Seafire, bomb too, so thats cool.