Author Topic: 109F-4 nuetered too?  (Read 1233 times)

Offline FlyinFin

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« on: November 13, 2005, 11:43:06 AM »
The 109F-4 was nuetered to. Took the gondola option away.
As I understand it this was personally requested by Adolf Galland himself.

"Bf 109F-4 Increased caliber of the MG 151 from 15mm to 20mm. Also utilized the Revi C/12D reflector gunsight that were standard on the earlier F-series. In addition, two further sub-type conversions were produced under the Bf 109F-4 designation. The first of these was the Bf 109F-4/R6 which was fitted with an extra pair of 20mm MG 151 cannon in underwing gondolas. The increase in firepower was made at the request of General Adolf Galland and other top Luftwaffe fighter aces. The additional armament of the F-4/R6 was well recieved. The increased weight and added drag had a detrimental effect on the aircraft's handling qualities, however, reducing its capability as a "dogfighter", and the aircraft were used strictly as bomber-interceptors. The second conversion was similar to that of the earlier fighter-bomber modifications to the Bf 109E-4/B and included the attachment of the ventrally-mounted ETC 250 bomb rack capable of carrying a 250 kg (550-lb.) bomb, a 300 Litre (66 Imp gal.) jettisonable fuel tank, or with an ER 4 adapter, four 50 kg (110-lb.) SC 50 bombs. "
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Offline Bruno

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2005, 12:26:22 PM »
It wasn't nuetered, it should never had gondolas to begin with. Gondolas were only available on the F-4/R1 which had different wings then the other F-4 versions. Only 240 /R1 F-4s were produced (out of 1841 total F-4s production) and not all of them had the gondolas mounted.

That quote provided is in error. Galland's flew F-2/U and F-6/U (Galland Special) which was a field conversion for his own personal aircraft. These had 2 MGFF/M mounted in the wings not slung underneath. Galland's issues with the firepower on the F series was with the F-2 which had a single MG151/15mm. Galland's final reply to Mölders' "One in the nose is better than two in the wings" was "I'd rather have all three". Galland got what he wanted for his own use...

FYI:
Bf 109F-4/R6
Engine:  DB 601E
Armament: 2 MG 17 in cowl,
1 MG 151/20 firing through spinner,
ETC 250 rack with 300l drop tank,
1 SC 250 bomb or (with ER 4 adapter) 4 SC 50 bombs
Radio: FuG 7a
Gunsight: Revi C/12D reflector

Point being is no gondolas for the 109F-4...

Offline Kurt

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Re: 109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2005, 12:31:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FlyinFin
The 109F-4 was nuetered to. Took the gondola option away.
As I understand it this was personally requested by Adolf Galland himself.
 


Adolf Galland personally requested HiTech to remove the gondolas?  That BASTARD!  Yet another reason to hate the Nazi's.
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Offline FlyinFin

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2005, 01:31:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
It wasn't nuetered, it should never had gondolas to begin with. Gondolas were only available on the F-4/R1 which had different wings then the other F-4 versions. Only 240 /R1 F-4s were produced (out of 1841 total F-4s production) and not all of them had the gondolas mounted.

That quote provided is in error. Galland's flew F-2/U and F-6/U (Galland Special) which was a field conversion for his own personal aircraft. These had 2 MGFF/M mounted in the wings not slung underneath. Galland's issues with the firepower on the F series was with the F-2 which had a single MG151/15mm. Galland's final reply to Mölders' "One in the nose is better than two in the wings" was "I'd rather have all three". Galland got what he wanted for his own use...

FYI:
Bf 109F-4/R6
Engine:  DB 601E
Armament: 2 MG 17 in cowl,
1 MG 151/20 firing through spinner,
ETC 250 rack with 300l drop tank,
1 SC 250 bomb or (with ER 4 adapter) 4 SC 50 bombs
Radio: FuG 7a
Gunsight: Revi C/12D reflector

Point being is no gondolas for the 109F-4...


Guess the drop tank goes next?

I don't recall saying he flew a 109F-4.

"The armament Bf of 109F-4 caused the most contradictory opinions of the most experimental pilot- destroyers of Germany. If Werner [Melders] was completely satisfied by easy armament from 20- mm of gun and two machine guns, then Adolf [Galland] examined the reduction of the composition of the armament of aircraft with step back. The as a result very first “collection of the armament of field installation”, developed for Bf 109F, was to vapor 20- mm of guns MG 151 in the wing pods with 120 projectiles in the stem. Destroyer with them obtained the designation Bf of 109F-4/R1. "
"Although the new guns made a destroyer dangerous enemy for the bombers, aircraft handling deteriorated, and chances in combat “destroyer against the destroyer” were lowered. Destroyer in this case acquired tendency toward the swaying. Swaying it was sultry by rudder, but in this case was required thorough balancing by trim tabs, in order not to lose “the aircraft feel”. H[a] Bf of 109F-4 tested still several of “the collections” of armaments, but for the change of a series F a series G already went, so that a few entered into service. True, on several aircraft was used the holder under the fuselage, capable of bearing 250- kgf bomb, 300- l tank or through the adapter ER 4- four 50- kgf of bomb. These destroyers were called Bf 109F-4/R6."
Translated

How Many Plain 109F-4 were made?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2005, 01:48:45 PM by FlyinFin »

Offline Wilbus

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2005, 01:45:16 PM »
AFAIK R stands for field convertion, which means he gondolas could be removed or installed as wanted. Same went for bombs.
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Offline 1K3

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2005, 01:59:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FlyinFin


How Many Plain 109F-4 were made?


see second post

Only 240 /R1 F-4s were produced (out of 1841 total F-4s production) and not all of them had the gondolas mounted.

Offline FlyinFin

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2005, 02:23:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
see second post

Only 240 /R1 F-4s were produced (out of 1841 total F-4s production) and not all of them had the gondolas mounted.


Yes and how many were F-4/B carrying a 500 kg bomb /R6 /R1 /torp /z /6
There were several F-4 subvariants out of the 1841-2200 made.

To have a true reprsentation should have a choice of all the variants.
 As stated all  rdy.

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
AFAIK R stands for field convertion, which means he gondolas could be removed or installed as wanted. Same went for bombs.

Offline Kurt

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2005, 02:30:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FlyinFin

To have a true reprsentation should have a choice of all the variants.
 As stated all  rdy.


We don't have every varient of any plane... Do you really think its reasonable?  I can't even remember how many actual 109 or 190 variations there were!

We don't have a full list of spits, mustanks or anything else.. Nor would I want that list because 90% would go unused.  Seems like a lot of work for HT and crew to develop models that will never fly.

I'd rather have them refine the planes we do use.
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Offline Eagler

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2005, 04:14:02 PM »
though the gondolas were removed for whatever reason, it seems to me the 20mm default package now has a better punch
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Offline FlyinFin

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2005, 04:16:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurt
We don't have every varient of any plane... Do you really think its reasonable?  I can't even remember how many actual 109 or 190 variations there were!

We don't have a full list of spits, mustanks or anything else.. Nor would I want that list because 90% would go unused.  Seems like a lot of work for HT and crew to develop models that will never fly.

I'd rather have them refine the planes we do use.



For Ex.
P-51D (NA-109/111/122/124)

Or do we just say a P-51Dcan doo this and call it that ? let the pilot choose?

It is resonable for the options to be there, Yes!

Lets just say 109F-4 and call it that and let the pilot choose.

Not askin for sumthing new just stuff that was here all ready,

109-F was a versatile plane, just as the P-51D was.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2005, 04:20:46 PM by FlyinFin »

Offline Bruno

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2005, 04:26:47 PM »
/R1s were produced with a a new wing to accommodate the gondolas. Of the 240 or so R1s produced not all of those had the gondolas mounted, of those that had them many had the gondolas removed. A representative F-4 is just what AH2 has now.

The F-4 is definately not nuetered because it doesn't have gondolas...

Offline FlyinFin

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2005, 05:13:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
[B
The F-4 is definately not nuetered because it doesn't have gondolas... [/B]

 
Your opinion.

Not only gondolas but the egg too.

What about the drop Tank? /r6

How many plain 109f's were made < no  varient >  ?

109F-4/b 500kg bomb?

Answer these 1st please,

Offline Bruno

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2005, 05:42:24 PM »
Quote
Not only gondolas but the egg too.


Who cares about a bomb? It's a fighter plane...

Waldemar Wübke's personal slogan expresses my feelings on a fighter with bombs:

Quote
Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn


Quote
What about the drop Tank? /r6


The DT in not exclusive to the R6 designation.

Quote
109F-4/b 500kg bomb?


See above...

Fritz is a fighter plane. Strapping all that extraneous garbage onto to it doesn't make it less 'neutered'. In fact any gain in lethality is offset by the performance loss.

If you are that upset over this type stuff why didn't you make yourself heard when Pyro asked?

There are more pressing issues in regards to the new 109s. Take the G-14 for example. It only reaches a top speed of 390 mph at 16400ft (FTH should be around 410-415 etc...) There other issues with the F as well. I am not going to start a new thread here but for your reading pressure:

109F-4 performance page

Complaining about stuff like 'dude where's my bomb' is just comical in the overall scheme of things.

Offline Kurt

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2005, 07:44:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FlyinFin
For Ex.
P-51D (NA-109/111/122/124)

Or do we just say a P-51Dcan doo this and call it that ? let the pilot choose?

It is resonable for the options to be there, Yes!

Lets just say 109F-4 and call it that and let the pilot choose.

Not askin for sumthing new just stuff that was here all ready,

109-F was a versatile plane, just as the P-51D was.


Fin,
I'm sure if you're willing to throw your programming skills in and develop these new models HT will appriciate it.

But come on man, every different flight model requires hours of work.  Sure, a sim that could do them all would be cool... And maybe five years hence we'll have every conceivable varient... But right now, unless you know a secret... Maybe we should be happy with what there is.  

Do you know another massive online with such a great selection of birds?
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Offline 1K3

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109F-4 nuetered too?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2005, 07:52:28 PM »
what is FTH?