Author Topic: New Spitfire Comparison  (Read 5669 times)

Offline SkyChimp

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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2005, 07:07:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by zorstorer
Maybe a dumb question ;)  How in the world do you read these charts??  :rolleyes:


hehe didn't u complete school? :D


Look at them for awhile u will understand.

Offline zorstorer

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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2005, 08:15:16 PM »
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Originally posted by SkyChimp
hehe didn't u complete school? :D


Look at them for awhile u will understand.


;)

Ok I think I have most of it...

upper right is the radius of the turn....also find your speed and g's then you can find your deg/sec of that turn....but what is the lower horizontal line coming off the move verticle line?

Online Shane

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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2005, 09:05:41 PM »
oh, i'm not contesting your diagrams (can't even understand 'em anyway, so I'll take your word for it :aok ) - i'm contesting this statement:

"the Spitfire VIII is now the ultimate dogfight variant."


I still say equal pilots, spitXVI will win the majority of the duels.
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Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2005, 09:23:34 PM »
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Originally posted by zorstorer

How in the world do you read these charts??


zorstorer, check this link EM: pick up the right plane for the job, you'll find what you're looking for. Btw, there's a .pdf version of it @ http://www.netaces.org

Badboy, I've heard of OODA in Andy's articles, he gave a basic description of it, any good reading on the Net to deepen my knowledge of this subject? Thank you, even for this new chart! :aok
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Offline zorstorer

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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2005, 12:21:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
zorstorer, check this link EM: pick up the right plane for the job, you'll find what you're looking for. Btw, there's a .pdf version of it @ http://www.netaces.org

Badboy, I've heard of OODA in Andy's articles, he gave a basic description of it, any good reading on the Net to deepen my knowledge of this subject? Thank you, even for this new chart! :aok



Thank you very much :)  I was on the right track but that site brought it all together, thanks again!!

Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2005, 05:55:29 AM »
You're welcome sir! And thanks Badboy, he's the man! ;)
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Offline Badboy

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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2005, 05:50:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
Badboy, I've heard of OODA in Andy's articles, he gave a basic description of it, any good reading on the Net to deepen my knowledge of this subject? Thank you, even for this new chart! :aok


Ok, here is an extract from part one of my series of lectures on the OODA loop.

The OODA loop was originated a number of years ago by a USAF fighter pilot and highly thought of tactician Colonel John Boyd. His OODA loop stands for Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act...this being the decision process that a pilot goes through in solving any given BFM problem during an engagement. For example, if you see you opponent change his flight path with an aileron roll, you are in the “Observe” phase of the loop. You then need to comprehend what effect your opponents changes will have on the situation, so now you are in the “Orient” phase. Now you need to make a decision from the many options available, and while doing that you are in the “Decide” phase. Finally, you need to execute that decision with a manoeuvre of your own, so you are in the “Act” phase of the loop, and so it continues.

When I teach this to flight sim’ pilots I prefer to call it the "Boyd Cycle" (when I call it the Boyd loop, some folk expect  it to involve a loop manoeuvre) and I explain that the pilot who consistently completes the cycle faster gains an advantage that increases with each cycle. Because the gains are additive the slower pilot becomes increasingly slower by comparison and therefore less effective until, finally, he is overcome by events.

So how does this theory apply to tactics in air combat? I've worked out some examples, but firstly, although gains in the loop can be made in any of the phases, I’m just going to consider just the "Action" phase. For example there is a large variation in roll rate for WWII aircraft and so those that have higher roll rates allow the pilot to complete the "action" phase more quickly, thereby allowing him to stay inside his opponent’s Boyd loop. This can be very powerful. For example, it is possible to defeat an aircraft with superior level turn performance, from a neutral position and ending with a guns solution, by using just a roll rate advantage. When inexperienced pilots see this, they are amazed that they have an aircraft that can out turn their opponent, yet they can't kill it. The reason is that the pilot of the aircraft with the superior roll rate can use manoeuvres that take advantage of the roll rate and increase their advantage incrementally every time they use it. Here is a concrete example.

Suppose we have Aircraft A and Aircraft B and suppose that the Aircraft A can turn at 18dps and has a 2dps turn rate advantage over Aircraft B that turns at 16dps. Normally, 2dps would be considered a decisive advantage in Air Combat, so Pilot A would be expected to win. However, suppose pilot B had a 120dps roll rate and that Pilot A has a 60dps role rate. Now consider what happens in a turn…

A and B are turning hard for 10 seconds say, and so pilot A gains 20 degrees on pilot B and thinks he’s winning the fight. But now B rolls 120 degrees and then continues turning. To follow him pilot A will need to roll for 2 seconds, but pilot B actually completed his 120 degrees roll in one second, so he was able to continue his turn for a full second while pilot A was still completing his roll, at 16dps that means pilot B just gained back 16 of the 20 degrees. Ok, I hear you thinking, Pilot A is still 4 degrees ahead, all he now needs to do is keep turning for the kill. Not so fast… The moment pilot B sees pilot A complete his roll and begin to turn into him again, pilot B repeats his previous 120 degree roll in another direction and now gains another 16 degrees. At the end of that pair of manoeuvres, pilot B with the inferior turning aircraft will be 12 degrees farther around than his opponent, and he will gain another 16 degrees every time he does it. Of course, I only picked those numbers because they were easy to work with, they aren’t important, it is the principle that counts. As Boyd said "Time becomes the critical determinant of combat advantage".
   
After all that, we have still only been discussing the “Act” part of the cycle. When you consider the other parts of the cycle, there are other factors that have an effect on the outcome. For simulation pilots the “Observe” phase is influenced by the viewing system used, the icons, radar, and even the game resolution all provide different visual cues. Their interpretation can lead to different perceptions and estimates of the combat situation. So “Orient” is about understanding what you see, and different levels of comprehension will compel pilots to make different decisions. Inexperienced pilots are more likely to use pure "G for brains", and pull directly into the bandit, while pilots better versed in the subtleties of air combat are likely to have a more complete three dimensional perspective, and thus be able to find more efficient solutions to BFM problems. So the “Orient” phase is about understanding the situation you are in, the implications of the bandits actions, and what you need to do about it, and there may well be several options. That of course leads to the “Decide” phase, and has other influences, for example how many solutions there are, how much fuel or ammo you have remaining, the proximity of other aircraft… and so on. Each phase takes some time and Boyd’s proposition was that the successful pilot will be able to process his OODA loop more rapidly than his opponent. In his own words the successful pilot would "get inside his adversary's loop", thereby forcing the opponent to always react defensively. Boyd once said while describing what it was like to operate inside his opponent’s OODA loop: “It’s like they’re moving in slow motion.”  And there are many who can confirm, that is exactly what it is like to fight new pilots online…

Hope that helps...

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Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2005, 08:04:54 PM »
Thanks Badboy, interesting reading. You said it's part of a series of lectures you did on OODA, have you "published" them anywhere? I think it is a good reading for most of us, here. And did Boyd enunciate his theory in a single writing, or those quotes are taken from various of his works?
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Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2005, 08:36:11 PM »
Never mind my second question, Badboy, I found Boyd's writings: here's the link, in case anyone is interested.

A discourse on winning and losing

I think it's all he wrote, isn't it?
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Offline KD303

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« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2005, 06:00:06 AM »
Interesting. Can I make what I hope will be seen a constructive suggestion? The three charts in the original post use red or blue lines to represent each aircraft. However, the Mk VIII is marked as red in the first chart and blue in the third, meaning you have to work out which is which for yourself in the second, as there is no reference in that particular chart, though the text helps clarify this. For the sake of clarity, sticking with one colour for each aircraft and puting a key on each chart makes them a easier to follow. This is not meant as a criticism and I may have missed something, maybe it was intentional? Red denoting superiority?

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2005, 10:40:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
I still say equal pilots, spitXVI will win the majority of the duels.


My apologies, I didn’t even test the Mk XVI because I assumed it would compare more closely to the XIV, but now I have tested it, I see it is much closer to the VIII than I expected.  The diagram below shows the comparison.



The performance is very similar, the XVI being slightly faster, slighter better Ps performance and climb rate. The difference is very small as you can see, but combined with more than a 50% improvement in roll rate means I agree, given equal pilots, it should win the majority of duels.

Well spotted Shane!

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Offline Badboy

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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2005, 10:42:57 AM »
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Originally posted by KD303
Interesting. Can I make what I hope will be seen a constructive suggestion?


Yep, just sloppy work on my part... I'll try to be more careful.

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Offline MOSQ

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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2005, 05:55:54 PM »
Badboy,

Good work on the Spit 16 chart.

Over the years I have collected as many of your charts as I could find. They've been a great reference and I'm really glad to see your making them again.

Two questions:

Could we get a chart or comparison chart with the ki-84 and the spit 8?

Secondly, is there a way to combine charts of the same plane but no flaps, 1 notch flaps, 2 notch flaps....ect. Assuming the flaps are dropped at the first available speed. For instance the Ki-84 has a remarkably different turn capability at 150mph depending on whether you have flaps out. I am imagining that such a chart would show the far left stall line not as a smooth curve but as a series of notches as the flaps come out.

I ask this because I'm sure if we compare a Ki-84 standard chart with a Spit 8, the Ki-84 loses. But if we include the Ki-84 pilot using his flaps, the Ki-84 will win the sustained turn fight, even if the Spit uses his flaps too.

Of course the Ki-84 pilot has to survive the initial turn rate advantage the Spit enjoys before the Ki-84 is able to get his flaps out. Against a good Spit pilot that is unlikley since HTC has modeled the Ki-84's flaps to deploy at an [editorial comment] unrealistically low speed.

Thanks again for your performance chart additions to the AH2 community.

Offline FTJR

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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2005, 06:51:14 PM »
MOSQ,
Just for your info, I also thought that the ki 84's combat flaps speed limit was unrealisticaly low. So I researched it, even got a copy of the actual pilots notes ( in japanese) and had them translated. Im sad to say that as far as I can tell Hitech are on the money. Though I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

I'd also like to see the EM charts for the ki.

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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2005, 06:53:37 PM »
FTJR,

My gut feeling is that the steps described in the notes are the landing stages, not the combat stage.  I have no evidence of that other than with a limit of 167mph for a combat stage makes said combat stage mostly useless.
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