Author Topic: Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules  (Read 890 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« on: November 16, 2005, 10:40:03 PM »
I suggest an implementation of a "Final Count" for kill awarding - 7 simple "rules" to awarding an A2A kill:


1. No matter the amount of damage done prior to the event, the kill is always awarded to the first person who directly renders a plane incapable of flight - "Final Count".

2. In case of GVs/boats, the kill is always awarded to the one who 'explodes' the GV/boat, no matter how much damage is done prior to the event.


3. "Final Count" will come into work when following conditions are met:

- immediate pilot death upon impact
- immediate seizure of engine upon impact
- destruction of one entire wing
- destruction of one entire vertical stabilizer
- destruction of both horizontal stabilizers
- destruction of the whole aft section of the plane
- starting of a fire upon the aircraft


4. Once a "Final Count" is achieved, all following hits to the plane will be ignored as a determinor for awarding kills.


5. The destruction of half a wing will be treated as a "semi-final count": once this condition is achieved, only a direct "Final Count" condition will be recorded after it is under work. All other hits to the plane will be ignored.

Quote
ie) a Fw190D-9 severs half of a P-51D port wing:

- if another plane achieves a "final count" condition as described in #1 before the P-51D crashes or ditches, then the kill is awarded to that plane.

- if the P-51D crashes or ditches, and no other "final count" condition is met until that event, then whatever amount of hits the P-51D suffered after being severed half a wing, it won't count in kill awarding. The Fw190D-9 who severed that half wing will be awarded the kill.



6. The current method of kill counting (awarding kill to the one who did most damage...) will only apply under the following condition;

Quote
- a plane makes forced contact with the ground (ditches/crashes)

 In this case, the fact that the target plane made a forced contact with the ground, will itself be treated as a "Final Count", and thus, any attack to the crashed/ditched plane after the event, will not count in kill awarding.

 In other words, if the pilot of the attacked plane is forced back to his tower due to a crash, ditching&return to tower, or landing&return to tower, outside of a friendly airfield runway, in the vicinity of enemy aircraft, then the pilot who did him most damage will always be awarded the kill, even if some other person comes along and blows him up on the ground.



7. #6 will only apply to planes with prior damage due to hostile aircraft. A completely undamaged plane, that ditches or crashes or lands outside of a friendly airfield runway, will be applied the "final count" as usual. In other words, if a plane without any prior damage gets on the ground for some reason, then a "final count" will be in work as always, and the one who blows him up, or renders his plane unflyable, will be awarded the kill.

 .................



 I figure these 7 rules to determining who gets the kill, will eliminate the "you stole my kill" hoosegows from the game completely, with the exception of rule #5.

 In case of rule #5, this rule is grudginly applied due to the fact that some planes still can manage to be aflight, despite loss of half a wing. In most cases, a plane which loses half a wing will immediately lose control and crash - thus, making it extremely unlikely for other planes to shoot it down during that short span of time, especially at typical MA engagement altitudes. However, if a plane loses specifically a half-wing at higher altitudes and spins down, then it will be the ONLY case where a typical "kill-stealing" will become possible.

 Since I couldn't come up with a very simple determinor for deciding who gets the kill on that special account, #5 had to be created. In all other cases, a simple "Yes/No" logic based upon data can draw out an accurate determining process for awarding kills, without requiring complex human judgement.



 Once this rule is under work;

a) every GV kill will be awarded to those who really 'kill' it. Tank busting aircraft will be required to truly "destroy" the GV to achieve a kill. It should be this way in matters of fairness, considering the time and effort required for tank drivers to achieve kills in an open combat situation without corny spawn point camping. Thus, with the "Final Count" rule applied, in most cases tankbuster planes will become a "support aircraft" that renders enemy vehicles immobile/useless, which should make it easier for friendly tanks to spot/kill it - rather than the "shoot a bit of rounds in every tank and collect the free kills when a friendly tank blows it up" plane.

b) every A2A kill will be awarded to the one who renders it unflyable. It won't matter how much damage any other person has done. If the plane is flying, then it's not a kill, nor should it ever be recorded as a kill. Only the person who renders it completely unflyable, has the rights to the kill.

c) kill stealing, in most cases, would be completely gone from the game. Once a condition is met which above 7 rules upholds, then all hits after it will not count. You may be able to track an enemy plane spinning down to the ground and blow it up - but you will never be awarded a kill for such behavior. Only when you truly render a plane unflyable, will you be awarded that kill, and noone, is going to steal that from you.



 Thoughts and comments are welcome.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 10:43:03 PM by Kweassa »

Offline lasersailor184

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2005, 11:41:32 PM »
Good thoughts, but bad execution on the GV's.


If I'm following this correctly, many times I take out a turret in a Hurri2d, yet another plane comes along and bombs it, I do not recieve a kill.  This does not change.


However, if I take out his engine, he has his final count and no matter what happens, I get the kill.

Still flawed.

It should be that if I render him incapable of firing, I should get the kill.
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Offline Kweassa

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2005, 11:48:58 PM »
Quote
If I'm following this correctly, many times I take out a turret in a Hurri2d, yet another plane comes along and bombs it, I do not recieve a kill. This does not change.


However, if I take out his engine, he has his final count and no matter what happens, I get the kill.


 Read rule #2.

Offline lasersailor184

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2005, 12:28:45 AM »
Exactly, I did read Rule #2.  You are still favoring the dweeb with the 2 1000 pound bombs.


I can come in with my HurriD and make a tank useless.  However, in your plan, the only thing that matters is the dweeb who carries bigger bombs.
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Offline Oleg

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Re: Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2005, 01:19:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
3. "Final Count" will come into work when following conditions are met:

- immediate seizure of engine upon impact


I dont think this can be count as "critical damage". Loss of engine dont make plane incapable of flight. Maybe as "semi-final count".

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
In case of rule #5, this rule is grudginly applied due to the fact that some planes still can manage to be aflight, despite loss of half a wing. In most cases, a plane which loses half a wing will immediately lose control and crash


In fact, most of planes (if not all of them) can flight w/o wingtip "unlimited" time. But landing is really hard now.

P.S. Current kill awarding system looks good for me (except GVs related part).
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Offline Kweassa

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2005, 01:54:16 AM »
Quote
You are still favoring the dweeb with the 2 1000 pound bombs. I can come in with my HurriD and make a tank useless. However, in your plan, the only thing that matters is the dweeb who carries bigger bombs.


 You obviously underestimate the potential advantage a dedicated anti-tank aircraft holds over normal jabo planes, as well as the implications it means to GV drivers. Strafing, is always easier than ordnance lobbing, as well as the potential to damage/destroy tanks. Some people may kill GVs 9 drops out of 10, but on a gross average of the entire game population, strafing with a tankbuster is by far the most popular method of tankbusting and it will stay that way.

 Just because a MK108 30mm gun is a one-shot one-kill device, doesn't mean the 109 is a more popular plane than a contemporary Spitfire. A Spitfire is basically easy, comfortable, and pleasant to maneuver and fight with, and that fact holds much more importance to the fighter pilots than just the potential to kill a plane. Same thing here.

 Besides, there's nothing 'dweebey' about dropping a bomb on a tank to kill it. If you don't want that, then you can always kill the tank with IL2s or Hurri2Ds. If you didn't kill it but only damage it, and someone else finally finishes it off, then by all means that kill belongs to him, not you.



Quote
I dont think this can be count as "critical damage". Loss of engine dont make plane incapable of flight. Maybe as "semi-final count".


 A non-powered flight, which basically I myself don't consider as 'flying'. The reason I included the engine death case, was that effectively the moment the engine is dead, the plane is out of the fight and terminally shot down. Imagine a scenario where a certain slow plane knocks the engine out of a plane speeding away from him at certain rate. Since the engine is out, effectively the guy will be caught on deck in a matter of seconds. The killing blow is already made and yet, some other plane drops by and shoots at a plane which engine is already dead.

 In this case, to whom should the kill belong to? Unlike a plane with damaged and running engine, a plane with a dead engine is IMO 'shot down'... considering the fact that were it in real life, the pilot would probably choose to bail out to safety and the plane would tumble down unmanned.

Offline Oleg

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2005, 02:10:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
A non-powered flight, which basically I myself don't consider as 'flying'.


Personally, i consider damage as critical if it make plane unable (or nearly unable) to land or ditch.
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Offline lasersailor184

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2005, 10:10:27 AM »
You overestimate the power of the Tank Busters.


You can't just shoot at tanks with the HurriD.  You need to hit the right angles, from the right speeds, and still pull out.

That is a thousand times harder then dropping a bomb.



Hitting a moving target with a bomb is easier then taking them out with HurriD's.
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Offline Tilt

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2005, 01:38:33 PM »
well the fact that there are gray issues around the best interpretation of implementation sort of nocks it on the head.

It seems rather complex to me.

Lots of conditional factors to arrive at an outcome.

I think there may be a "work towards" that HTC could achieve in terms of better definition of kill status...................

Frankly I would like to see more emphasis on the assist..a player should not be awarded a kill because he put one more bullet in a critical component (or the total frame) than some guy who is going to get an assist.

IMO no one should get a kill who has put in less than 60% of the damage via ordinance...........

and no one should get an assist for less than 30%

and yes that means that some times only assists are awarded...........

and yes it could even theoretically mean that no one gets an assist or kill.........................

if the daisy chain was 4 or 5 players long......................

might mean a few less daisy chains....................... .
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Offline Mustaine

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2005, 12:38:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 A non-powered flight, which basically I myself don't consider as 'flying'. The reason I included the engine death case, was that effectively the moment the engine is dead, the plane is out of the fight and terminally shot down. Imagine a scenario where a certain slow plane knocks the engine out of a plane speeding away from him at certain rate. Since the engine is out, effectively the guy will be caught on deck in a matter of seconds. The killing blow is already made and yet, some other plane drops by and shoots at a plane which engine is already dead.

 In this case, to whom should the kill belong to? Unlike a plane with damaged and running engine, a plane with a dead engine is IMO 'shot down'... considering the fact that were it in real life, the pilot would probably choose to bail out to safety and the plane would tumble down unmanned.
this would only encourage HO attempts to take out the engine, and be awarded the kill 1/2 sector away.

you could make slashing HO attacks, then zoom up up and away, and still get the kill credits.
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Offline *NDM*JohnnyX

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2005, 02:37:19 PM »
So if I take out the treads and turret of a Tiger and some idiot comes along and drops a bomb on it, he gets the kill? That seems rather foolish.

Offline Lye-El

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2005, 04:58:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


  Unlike a plane with damaged and running engine, a plane with a dead engine is IMO 'shot down'... considering the fact that were it in real life, the pilot would probably choose to bail out to safety and the plane would tumble down unmanned.


In real life they would most likely bail. In the game....I've killed aircraft and ack with a dead engine. Just because the engine quit, out of fuel or damaged, doesn't mean it is out of energy. Or bullets.

Just sayin...


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline Kweassa

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Implementation of a "Final Count" - 7 rules
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2005, 02:40:10 AM »
Quote
this would only encourage HO attempts to take out the engine, and be awarded the kill 1/2 sector away. you could make slashing HO attacks, then zoom up up and away, and still get the kill credits.


 Good point. Haven't thought of that one - obviously, engine deaths should be dropped as a condition for the final count.



Quote
So if I take out the treads and turret of a Tiger and some idiot comes along and drops a bomb on it, he gets the kill? That seems rather foolish.


 What's so foolish about awarding a kill to the person who actually killed something, rather than damage it?